Gaia: What Is Enlightenment? - What Is Enlightenment? Water Cooler - Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:36:14 -0000

this is really intriguing to me. i have long suspected that there are no shortcuts to enlightenment and stories like this tend anecdotally to support that hypothesis.

i was talking with my friend the other day about those enlightenment stories, because he was a zen buddhist for years, living in japan, and i knew he'd understand. i said, you know those stories which culminate in some seemingly innocuous experience and then the words, "and he was enlightened"? he nodded, smiling. i have a whole book of those, but reading about other people being enlightened doesn't make me enlightened. what i do notice is that the enlightenment comes "coincidentally" after many years of patient, diligent practice and self-discipline. i believe it is the practice of love, compassion, solitude, meditation and other vital life-giving ways of being that prepares us for the moment of true enlightenment, and that when enlightenment comes, we realize it's only one more small step on the path.

love,

nicole

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:45:41 -0000

It is important to distinguish a spiritual experience from enlightenment.

Patrick

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:51:17 -0000

Patrick,

Couldn't enlightenment be a spiritual experience?

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:24:31 -0000

I want to back up Patrick's statement that it's important to make the distinction between enlightenment and a "state" experience. We can have experiences of enlightened consciousness--spontaneously or otherwise--but I think the important question, and probably what this thread is pointing to ultimately, is...does the Samadhi experience make us enlightened?

Well, that's cool, because it brings us to the question of this entire pod, and the Magazine itself... What is enlightenment? So if we experience a higher perspective, a view of the ultimate, our participation in the process of the development of life and consciousness comes right to the fore. And so I say that if we are in a state of surrender to the absolute and in a constant state of development on all lines and levels, if one is viewing life from a truly cosmocentric perspective, if on is expressing a very high level of ethical behavior and moral code, then one might be considered enlightened. But really, that's a big if. And Enlightenement is not an end state. Andrew Cohen speaks about this in a very beautiful way on his most recent blog post (which interestingly enough he has titled, What Is Enlightenment Anyway? And Why My Students Will Never Get "Enlightened"...)

So really, to me, the Samadhi/Enlightenment interplay is all about how we use the Samadhi experience for development, so that we are living up to what we've recognized to be ultimately true. Do our lives express that?

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:53:50 -0000

     Terry,
            My experiences with enlightenment are somewhat like meditation, you can meditate anytime you want too. I have had people come up to me and tell me that I am glowing like a light bulb or I can feel your energy as I walk by you. It is what is in your thought is in your emotions, it is up to you, you can be what you want to be when you want to be. I will share more with you later Terry, if your interested e- mail me.
                            Your friend, Don

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:13:15 -0000

What is enlightenment?

Well it is my opinion that enlightenment is the process of unfolding the divinity within and that doing that is not all that difficult especially nowadays. I don't think it is an instant process, more of a process of little sips of spirit that you take to avoid "shocking" the body and mind with the ultra high vibration of your true conscious self, but certainly not a complicated,involved, or difficult process.

As for this other stuff, interesting story I have. Listen to it you will.

I recently went to PR firm to ask them to do some PR work for me. When I asked them what they could do for me they said, and I kid you not, "well, we'll take your money, we'll do some work for you, but we can't gaurantee any progress or return".

To which I said, "really?"

m

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:19:56 -0000

The only tangible transformation in my character is that I was imbued with an imperative compassion for a holistic nature- but strangely one that did not extend to humankind. Nor have I become a beautiful person in terms of my interpersonal behavior. I remain ego-centered and except for my environmental activism and preoccupation with my Maya-Gaia website, uninvolved in any spiritual practice. So although I feel fully realized, I feel yet unenlightened.

I'm the same way. I'm not exactly a paragon of bliss and virtue in my daily life but I don't attribute that to any failure to integrate. I attribute it to the fact that this world sucks and that life here is way more diffcult than it needs to be. If I wanted to, perhaps I could go live on the top of a mountain where I could engage in daily practice, look down on the daily grind of the life of the planet, and smile the blissful smile of the one who has experiencec Samadhi (i.e., the blisfful oneness with God). But, kids, cats, mortgage, car, house, work, wife, friends, and all the other demands of this physical existence make the permanent experience of bliss difficult.

m

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:38:57 -0000

                Michael,
                       I believe you, I know where you are coming from because I used to be the same place.
                              Your friend, Don

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:45:30 -0000

Hi Don

its sounds like you think that "the place" I"m in is undesirable... Is that right?

m

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:17:57 -0000

M,
I was just thinking about what you said, that life "in the world" basically sucks (cats, mortgage, etc) and I was thinking, well, sure, there are many practical things to deal with every day, but isn't enlightenment about our perspective on ALL of it? I don't honestly think that enlightenment has anything to do with feeling blissful. (Sure, state experiences can be blissful, but that isn't really the point, is it?) Life is ultimately positive, and it is about being in the process of creation itself, which means being engaged in every aspect of life. (And then making our lives a reflection of the divine. Doesn't mean we don't pay bills. But might mean we make significant changes in how we spend our time...)
WDYT?

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:30:42 -0000

<i>but isn't enlightenment about our perspective on ALL of it?</i>

Hi Laura

I don't think I disagree with you here, but can I ask for some clarification. Do you mean like, if you're enlightened you'll have a positive perspective on things? Or do you mean that being enlightened really just means being "in the process of creation" like being fully present in this moment?

As for bliss and enlightenment, like you I don't equate the two but I certainly think they are related. For example, if, for some reason you all of sudden remembered your divinity (which is how I define enlightenment), then you'd be hard pressed not to feel good yourself. Don't u think?

m

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 04:44:57 -0000

I know exactly where you r coming from. I too had similar experience as a child and allowed the corruption of the world to interfere. I am an awakened one. to be awake to the universal stream is not enlightenment. I do believe, as matter of degree that i am yet their seems something lacking. It is mainly that we are caught up in our daily lives and survival and in this grasping and clinging...life, family, business etc. These things take root and give a false sense of other stemming from desire, a main root. You cannot attain, then think you can come back in to a society that is against you and maintain a foundation of samadhi, which can be addictive and further confuse. I can samadhi at will but also realize this is not the goal only nonexistant and phenomenal. That in samadhi u pull the veil back further without the shock value of u know u now know reality for what it is and understand the life u live now is false. It will eat at u until u are unhappy, instead be happy that u are on the right path but that also the precepts do apply. The world today is full of the blind who will refuse to see truth for what it is. You have a headstart on most. Out there u will not find satisfaction, find it in like minded people as you and continue to take refuge in your meditation and it will work. I think u r doing wonderful,
adamdas

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 04:47:08 -0000

Mayagaia:

Go with what you know. If you have had a realization of God and have an understanding of the nature of the relationship between God and the creations of God, then you have opened an amazing door into Consciousness. Are you Enlightened, or have you just come close? That may be a matter of opinion to others, but it is in reality something between you and your acceptance of God.

People who have become realized and who have become enlightened are still people, and still exist in the physical world where they have to pay the rent and mind the kids and go to work and deal with unpleasantries and disappointments. But they have the knowledge close at hand which enables them to deal with these things in a more positive and life affirming manner. Situations in life may indeed "suck", but the underlying experience in the having been created by God life we are all wandering around in is marvelous.

The relationship between God and you and the universe is at once immense and simplistic. Although we find it useful to develop stratagies and levels and labels and pre's and post's and here's and there's and movable feasts of salvation, in the end it all boils down to just God and the love which results in the creations of God. So, go with what you know, and practice kindness every chance you get.

Blessings and Peace

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 04:57:35 -0000

Most believe enlightenment is something to be attained, it is not. it is something that happens. What is searched for will not be found. it is already there in all wisdom. Medition is the key yes and in that, opputunity will arise as you continue in meditation. Because of ur lifestyle and all its complications hinder. Make your life more simple, take some irons out of the fire. You are already perfect you only need to take the time to realize it and time is all you have. know that you are eternal. pray it, meditate it, mantra it, Believe it and u will c reality as it is. When u do this ( complicate it ) you will find how simple it really is. Do not be hard on yourself.
adamdas

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:21:43 -0000

Hi Michael,

This is really great that you've brought the very stuff of our daily lives into this discussion, because this is what demonstrates the depth and breadth of our enlightment. There are many times I think I've made tremendous progress spiritually, and indeed I've made some, but then I go through a rough week and lose my temper a lot, and I know I still have a long way to go.

My priest/mentor likes to remind me when I talk about the frustration of "interruptions" that that is the work that I've been given on that day, not what I was happily doing and planned to do when I was interrupted.

It also reminds me of something C.S. Lewis said in one of his books about stress and bad experiences being like a light suddenly switched on in a dark basement, and you see the rats and cockroaches running for cover. The light didn't create the rats and cockroaches, they were already there unseen in the dark basement. Even so stress and the stuff with which I currently struggle shines a light in my life to reveal the "rats and cockroaches", the anger, the sarcasm, and other forms of negativity and self-protection that I need to resolve.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:21:30 -0000

Well I'm not sure there's anything wrong, for a spiritual point of view, with losing your temper. Sometimes a blast of energy is what is required to remove a blockage. though of course you need to control anger and not let it run away with you or become something that fester inside.

Your priest/mentor has a good way to look at it.

I also agree about working to overcome negativity, anger, sarcasm is important. This always involves going within to find the source of the anger. It has also been my experience that the source of the anger is often some trauma that has occured in the real world.

the point?

I really think working on the spiritual side of stuff and making good progress requires honoring and respecting the body, mind, and ego.

m

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:23:01 -0000

right on bro. I would word is a bit differently though. I would say "enlightenment is something to be remembered".

m

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:29:40 -0000

Well said, Michael. Thanks!

Nicole

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:00:37 -0000

Right back at ya...

m

Re: Exploring the Samadhi/Enlightenment Interplay

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:19:12 -0000

Lura, Dennis and all- Thanks for prompting me to actually read some Andrew Cohen and I found his dialog with Ken Wilber about Spiral Dynamics and integral spirituality right on point for explaining how even profound transcendence can result in spiritual dysfunction with my own case history as a bench mark example. Together they offer some great perspective on how historic insight can be extrapolated into an advanced spiritual paradigm.

On a conceptual note- I've some serious concerns however with their shared enthusiasm over the term "Gaia addiction" which although not explained I took to imply that environmentalists are misdirecting their compassion. If that is the insinuation, I'd argue that the spirituality that drives millions of people to fight global warming and defend ecosystems and wildlife compares to the highest level that AC and KW can hope to inspire in their teaching. In fact the case can be made that those who dedicate their lives to defend Gaia (myself not included) have sacrificed their self- perfection for a greater cause. This suggests a disintegration of ego as profound as that aspired to by those focused exclusively on self-enlightenment in that they may suffer the consequences of imperfections in their interpersonal relationships.

On a minor note- I thought the episodes of collective consciousness during AC and KW classes was over romanticized, since we can compare those psychological environments with charismatic church congregations, religious ritual, trance dance, etc. where such interplay is routine and often surpassed with ecstatic demonstrations.

Philosophically I view humankind as Gaia's cancer so my support for raising human spirituality is merely a practical strategy for expressing my true compassion for Gaia. It does seem highly unlikely civilization will evolve other than increasingly self-destructively. On the other hand, there really is no alternative but to hope that environmentalists can acquire enough political power globally, so that along with positive efforts like the teachings of AC and KW, we can avoid utter Gaiacide.