Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

I have just noticied these two in the public arena.
I haven’t read anything by either except for a talk in WIE that they held in Denver some time ago.

Some things they said were fairly obvious and would be to those with interest in sprituality and development ( conscious action vs. the “being here now” obsession of many new agers)

Some things were absurd - God needing us to create the next future. (Cohen)

I just want to know what it is that these people are contributing to the world that has not yet been given.

Do we need more “distinctions” of “higher self” “spirit” “atman”, etc. if most people have no idea what that is (maybe including the authors themselves?).

Would love some insights.

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

Both Ken and Andrew are offering the World a chance to view a paradigm of evolutionary development that transcends traditional mythic and ethnocentric altitudes. Ken's Integral Philosophy is a vehicle that can be used for personal development, social or economic development it can even be used to seek what a lot of people call enlightenment. Andrew similary is a pioneer in evolutionary spirituality specifically, drawing on the spiritual insights of those who many believe to have attained some degree of enlightenment Andrew has attempted to sketch out what such a state-stage might look like, regardless of the mythic identities that particular spiritual traditions attach to it.

 Despite the similarity in the each one's pursuit of this emerging field, each approach it very differently, Andrew is a spiritual leader where as Wilber is more of an Academic, personally I identify with Wilber's approach more however, Andrew's ceaseless investigation of evolutionary spirituality has greatly influenced my own inward pursuits. To truly get a feel for the difference between what Andrew and Ken are propossing and what we've seen on the spiritual scene before, look at some of their source material Teilhard de Chardin and Sri Aurobindo to start with.

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

I first was introduced to Ken Wilber's work in 2001 when I began studying Transpersonalism and the theories of Cayce, Grof and Wilber himself. He appealed to me on a level far reaching mere ego satisfaction, he stimulated the senses (all 6 of them). I was thirsty for a new way to approach a better life besides simply living it. Mundane consistency and schedules other people expected me to meet was detracting from my self-hood.

Ken Wilber has written some fascinating books on the levels of consciousness an awake and numb person can reach if willing to transcend the shackles society places on the human being. If not for the spirit housed in the physical host, this body would collapse under the weight of 'it' all; Wilber offers the key to unlocking those shackles and becoming weight-less.

A special favorite of Wilber's, Up From Eden, allowed me to cast aside indoctrination shackles of religious nature and step into boundaries where the feminine divine was far-superior and not delineated by power but of compassion. I have not read anything from Andrewe Cohen and am embarassed to say I have never heard of him, or at least I don't recall being taught anything he did or said.

I graduated having been opened up to a philosophy that “transcends traditional mythic and ethnocentric altitudes”, helping me push prejudice, racisms, sexism and any other negative ISM out of my cognitive construct. It realy helps these days … I love ken Wilber for how integral he is after having lost the love of his life and granting loss as wonderful as being here with her right now. Nothing is really different 'cept the perspective and oh what a gift that can truly be.

sharing the light and happy March,
Miss Erica Hidvegi, the Enlightenment_Advisor, B.A. Psych/M.A.
Transpersonal Studies- Cnslng/Author, Artist, Photographer,
Entrepreneur & Freelance extraordinaire
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AU_ARE/

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

Thanks Drake.

I want to address this from Katya.   “Some things were absurd - God needing us to create the next future. (Cohen)”

It is my own sense that we are all aspects of God and that we are constantly in the process of co-creation with God, Goddess and The Beginning.  So God doesn't need us to create the future.  That is being done by those who have chosen to aligh with the Divine Plan as it is understood by them.  We always have freewill to think, feel, speak nd act as we do. 

Do we always do so in alignment with the Highest Good?  No, I and you are still humans exploring expressing our divinity, either conciously or unconsciously.

Both of these men are bringing great light in their own way.  One very mental and the other spiritually, yet they are humans expressing through a human instrument , so their truths are theirs, which they offer for those who have ears ready to hear.  If it doesn';t resonate for the moment leave it and move on.  If it does to some degree perhaps your Soul calls you to investigate further.

Blessed Be,

Jeremiah

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

hm… interesting thread… doesn't seem to have a central topic… besides like Wilber and Cohen… lol

never read anything by either… but am interested in spiritual growth… I meditate all the time… like any opportunity I get… LOL…

anyway… this pod is concerning with magick, right?… and like… English magick… since it is spelled CK, instead of just magic…. so… um… not sure beyond this…

I think once we reach a point, we must know without speaking… I think that's the point of “meaning”… if anyone gets my drift… hehehe…

I think it's funny how in English… mean and meaning have two different… umm… meanings… LOL… sorry… BIG pun intended =)…

so… any more thoughts?… is this the right direction for this thread?

many thanks,

Nic

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

Hi there. I live just outside Carmarthen - Merlins Town. Lived in London before that.  Funny, Weve always spelt it Magic!  lol     OK, time to shut my mouth. No offence intended -just thought it was funny.

Love n hugs,    Susan.  x

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

lol no way… you live near where Merlin lived?… no way!!… lol… I love english magic… well… any european magic really… it's the only kind I understand… perhaps because I'm European… lol…

anyway… you know anything else about Merlin?… he's kinda the most famous English magician, isn't he?… well… ancient magician… I'm sure there are more out there, but his name is still around, so I'm curious…

there's the saying “Merlin's beard!”…. that must mean something… *scratches head*… anyway… just curious…

blessings,

Nic

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

Hi there Nic,  My computer keeps going down when I try to post this- odd!

Yes, Merlin, or Myrddrin in welsh, is supposed to be trapped forever in a hill towards Carmarthen. Hes  supposed to have lived, but everyone from the Scottish to those in Somerset have tried to claim Camalot. To the side of my house is Kidwelly castle. Youll be able to pick it up with pic on net. Its wild sitting in the back garden, looking up at a huge imposing castle with bats that come down, chasing moths in the summer.  The welsh princess, Gwenllian, led her army on horseback against the Normans in the castle. Of course they chopped off her head up by the castle - no sence of humour.   There are all sorts of legends all over Wales - its a strange place… but cool.

Love    Susan.

I havent read Cohen or Wilbur either! lol

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

Oh, and I think the “merlins beard” phrase is just Harry Potter!!!!  lol

Susan.  x

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

At the risk of appearing ignorant and foolish (because I actually am both), I admit that I’m unfamiliar with the work of either of these guys.

It seems that I have little time, energy or resources for this sort of study. I’m more a student of interaction, of the world around me and the way we move through it.

Now that I’m aware of these people I suppose they and their work, like so many before them, will start popping up more in my line of sight. I seem to rely on these synchronicities to enlighten me more than seeking things out intentionally.

Though I’ve never really considered this before, I guess I expect things to magically manifest in front of me, because they always have, and continue to do so. Of course, most people I know consider me crazy, delusional, or eccentric because I live this way, but it never fails me when I remain open and continue to follow the signs, letting them find me rather than trying to find them.

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

Interesting thoughts here..love the spelling bee! i don't think anyone truly needs to worry about the spelling of magic/k, only to believe it is around ..like the god dude people believe in. I was only introduced to Ken Wilber about 18 months ago and made the connections with on line reading to Cohen. I find Ken's words incredibly easy to understand and many of his thoughts I wish I had heard years ago, I would not have felt so alone.

With many things, take the words and thoughts you wish, the ones that will encourage you and give you positivity.

wishes and blessings K

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

It's possible that I'm wrong, but I think I'm onto these guys' point here.  I've been following the WIE Guru and Pandit discussion for a while and have loved it.  So, here's my spin…  which will tell you just how far along I am. 

The distinctions between levels of self or being are useful for when people are finally ready to go higher.  When we run out of jelly-beans, it's nice to find out that we're omnivorous and can actually eat other things.  But, like you said, who hasn't done catagorization work before?  Big whoop!  Well, the whoop is that there is alot of pressure to get rid of catagories and levels and stages and vertical movement in some academic circles.  Why?  Because it makes us all unequal.  Some become lableled better than others.  Holier than thou, more ecological than thou, etc.  And in the pluralistic world of academia where the slaves of postmodernity are the gatekeepers, the desire to improve one's state or stage or quality of being can't get any traction.  It is ignored right out of existence.  You and I may not inhabit those places, but Ken does, and Andrew ends up having to argue with those eggheads all the time, and he sees their Shadow. 

As far as God needing us to create the future - this involves the reuptake of the idea of God as 2nd person, so unless one stops taking the Spiritual prozac, one won't see the value in that either. 

Humanity won't benefit from leaving behind every idea that has gotten us here to begin with, and the idea of God as Other is one of the most important of those ideas.  It makes relationship possible.  And while it also makes Shadow possible, if one deals with one's Shadow, then one becomes free to relate without it, whereas if one tries to leave behind any and all divisions of self altogether, along with the relationship which accompanies that, without first integrating one's Shadow, it keeps weighing one down like a boat anchor.  One will keep seeing Monsters and will keep fighting them regardless of whether or not they are real or hostile.  Endless Karma.  Endless suffering.

God (in the context of 2nd Person) is self-contained and really doesn't need us at all.  But if God is a Person, then God relates with others.  This means that there must be something that we can get traction on each other about.  What is that?  Is that even valuable?  Why or why not? 

What if God has been dragging us along like a trailer up until this point, using HIs/Her sense of direction and creativity to get us where we needed to go?  And now, He/She's ready to put us in the driver's seat and have us take the lead?  Isn't this one of the perks of being one with God, or eliminating all sense of seperateness?  If we're “God”, doesn't that mean we're now in charge?  What kind of universe do we want to create?  What kind of beings do we want to be?  What kinds of experiences do we want to have?  Are there more levels of development that we can create for ourselves or for other creatures, or are we ready to get off the ladder completely and use the erotic energy of the Universe for something completely different?!  What would that be?

When I read Andrew talking about this, I get this deja vu thing involving a joke I heard about Parenting.  It goes kinda like this:  When I was little, my parents were the stupidest people alive.  When I became a teenager, I realized that all Parents were stupid, and that mine were no different.  When I was in my 20's, my Parents got alot smarter, but after I got married and had kids, my Parents suddenly grew to be very wise.  Now that my kids are growing, I realize that all Parents get wiser and that mine are nothing special.   

The joke, of course, is that the Parents didn't get smarter at all.  The child grew in their ability to see how smart they were because they were growing out of their narcissism.  I'm not so sure that Andrew isn't cataloguing a similar phenomenon about God.  Most of the older religions involve God being at a higher place, and us at a lower place in development, holiness, status, glory, righteousness, whatever.  What if that is the story we needed to hear in order to make sense of things as we could see them?  What if we can now perceive things more realistically (but maybe not yet completely realistically) and we see that our creativity is God's creativity.  Instead of waiting for instructions to come down from heaven, what if we are now expected to draw the plans up ourselves?

It's hard to transmit the sense of openness that they are talking about.  How does one describe that which does not yet exist?

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

I am enjoying this thread.

When I read the beginning post my blurry eyes read “God Needs Us to Celebrate the next Future.”

Interesting. Perhaps since the hands and feet are here on Earth as we create the next future, we could see it as play - making it up as we go along - and definitely Celebrate!

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

I've read many of Ken Wilber's books, but my only exposure to Andrew Cohen has been through YouTube videos, so I'm not well-versed on his work.

Essentially, my stance in regards to Wilber right now is shakey. His work was extremley influential for me and in the development of my mind and map of the world, but over the years I've became very skeptical about the practical and interpersonal effects that categorizing people into a Spiral Dynamic has. I think its very easy for the Spiral Dynamic system to become a sort of  Caste System for the Intelligencia, granted with lots of flexibility. Now, I'm denying  that some people are more “conscious” than others, to prove that just look around you– I am, however, questioning the usefulness of such a system, and I am questioning its more subtle implications.

I consider Ken Wilber to be a philosopher, and a damn good one at that. I do NOT consider him to be a Spiritual Pandit, as many people regard him, and the Integral System alone will NOT Wake You Up. For that, see an authentic spiritual tradition, where you can visibly WTINESS the emergence of Awakened Beings.

Also, having read one of his rhetorts to an e-mail criticising aspects of his theory, I was completely taken a back by the childishness and pure narcisism in which he publically denounced the person, with an argument that boiled down to “I'm Turqouise vMeme, and thus perfect, and if you see flaws in me or anything that comes out of me, then you're just not smart enough yet”. This, coupled with his backing AND promoting of the (Pure Bullshit) 'Big Mind', make me conclude that this guy is NOT Awake. Fairly realized? Sure. Awake? Meh.

As of right now, I highly reccomend all of his early Phase I books (No Boundary, Spectrum of Consciousness, the Atman Project). Pre-Integral, Pre-Spiral Dynamics work. Now, I don't have anything against Integral Theory in and of itself, like I said before, my main issue is with Spiral Dynamics. Unfortunately, most of his recent work hinges on Spiral Dynamics, so its somewhat turned me off (Although I've read them anyway).

Still though, I haven't read any modern Ken Wilber books since I was about 16 (about 2 1/2 years ago), so I'm  going to re-read Integral Spirituality and A Brief History of Everything pretty soon  to see how I re-internalize the information now with my (drastically) diffrent mind, way of thinking, world-view, and intentions.

Also, (although I understand he does this to maintain Academic Credibility) he unfairly marginalizes the Western Esoteric (Magickal) Tradition. He falls subject to his own (in his terminology) Pre/Trans fallacy. Granted, the WET will NOT Wake You Up, and far too often  DOES lead to psychosis or an enormous ego (hence the demon Choronzon)  unless done in conjunction with some other Authentic spiritual practice, most High Magick is NOT pre-rational, as Wilber posits, but trans-rational.

And, in terms of Andrew Cohen? The whole new-age mish-mash “All spiritual traditions are the same, so lets just marginally investigate 5 diffrent schools, then speak in a smorgasboard of terms to sound deep and spiritual” is total crap to me. Don't mix-and-match Maps unless you are COMPLETELY versed in the map, and of course, the Territory, since the Map is not the Territory*.

Spiritual Practice often gets treated with the same attitude as Philosophy. This is NOT just more head-games and semantic word-play. I personally believe it should be approached with the attitude of a scientist. Theory without Practice is fruitless. Dry Intellectualization will NOT Wake You Up, itt'l only further embed you in your own delusion. Right View, however, does lead one out of their own embeddedness. Its a connundrum, but basically, if Spiritual Practice is something you're intrested in, after you put down that book, go somewhere and learn how to Meditate. Then, take some time to deeply investigate a tradition of your choice (which not only involves reading books, but experimenting with practice, internalizing information, and speaking to other practicioners/teachers),

Reading a Wilber book alone isn't going to cut it. Neither will a Cohen book.

And 'Big Mind' is a scam.

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Re: Ken WIlber / Andrewe Cohen

*EDIT* (typo)

Now, I'm *not* denying  that some people are more “conscious” than others, to prove that just look around you– I am, however, questioning the usefulness of such a system, and I am questioning its more subtle implications.

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