My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Dear Mr. Wilber:

While it cannot be denied that humans tend to go on and on about things (and I am no exception), in the end, the truth is very simple. 

…in that spirit, I say: quadrants?  I'm confused.

And I say that not because I can't understand… but… I think I'd rather go look at flowers or hang out by the sea.

Sincerely,
Alan

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Each of us searches in our own way.

The Truth is quite large. A human could study and talk about it for a lifetime and understand but a tiny piece. Or, as you say, you can experience it viscerally in an instant.

There are many paths, all good.

If AQAL helps some find a place in this world either mentally or spiritually, amen brother (or sister or friend).

When anyone experiences the Divine in Nature, Amen to that too.

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Alan, I am so jealous of you and S. by the sea! I wanna be by the sea too waaaaa!

sigh… ok got that out lol can get on with my work day

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

in the end, the truth is very simple.

In the end, its all very simple…
…you live until you die

And if you can enjoy it along the way…
…be it flowers or the sea…
… contemplating the mysteries or philosophizing quadrants…
… then all the better.

Blessings,
Marmalade

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Hi, Alan,

What would you say “the truth” is?

Best wishes,

Balder

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Don't take the bait, man, don't take the bait!!!!!

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

watching with interest to see if he takes the bait, smiling contentedly

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

mwa ha ha ha ha : )

What is the truth?  Well, the universal truth is something fundamentally beyond language.  The more we talk about truth with the idea our words can reach it, the farther away it gets. 

Heaven forbid we begin to ARGUE about it…

While we debate, the wind whispers the truth in our ear, I say. 

So no bait taking here, I will not debate…

Nicole, the sea is lovely, and I'll be sending you, at the very least, some of her energy… here's hoping one day you can make it down here to visit, and we three can splash around in the surf!  (the waves speak the truth also… and go: “Craaasshhhh!!!!!”)

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

yay! thanks, Alan, you rewarded my faith by cutting through the Gordian knot in your unique and delightful way. and, yeah, i've gotta get down there sometime but first i have to see my dad in Tobago… sigh… you don't want to know how long i have already postponed that important and necessary trip because of excessive busyness…

love to you and S. in your tropical paradise,

nicole

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Hmmm….. so does that mean we should all simply stop talking because words digress from “the truth” or maybe we should continue to talk about truths, just not the “universal” kind?

If you hear the wind whispering truth into your ear, do you wonder why others do not hear it too? In fact, doesn't your “hearing” truth result in an iresistible desire to teach it to others? How could it NOT?

Even the ancient spiritual masters conveyed the idea that you could NOT learn from them, yet that did not stop them from teaching.

Love can be learned and I believe that by teaching love through extension we will ultimately learn it. Unfortunately, our minds are so inundated with relative, insiginificant “truths” that we fail to teach and learn universal truth. 

It seems language is all we have, so we best learn to use it effectively by using it to extend this universal truth.

So there you have it, truth is LOVE and it's universal. It isn't the flowers or the sea, it's LOVE OF the flowers and the sea. This universal truth is not OUT THERE, it's IN HERE, within all of us and if we extend it, we teach and learn it.

Obviously, everyone knew the answer, otherwise it wouldn't be “universal.”

Peace Angels,
mike S

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

I have been saying “Don't take the bait” to myself from the moment I read the initial post. And yet I persist…..


The truth does not always run away when we pursue it. When our intentions are to embrace it in love, it fills us with a warm glow that feeds us. It is only when we close ourselves, either saying “I got it,” or “I will never get it” that we lose our touch with the Divine.

One of my favorite stories is that of Randy Rhoads, a heavy metal guitar player, no less. But one of the top at his game at the time he lived. The story goes that at every city he stopped, he'd go to the local guitar store and seek out the teacher. Half the time he ended up giving the other teacher a lesson, but that was good too. But the richness of that many teachers and that many perspectives!!!!

As Nicole reminds me, this way of living has its positives and negatives.

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

“The truth does not always run away when we pursue it. When our intentions are to embrace it in love, it fills us with a warm glow that feeds us. It is only when we close ourselves, either saying “I got it,” or “I will never get it” that we lose our touch with the Divine.”

Negoba, I couldn't agree more.

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

NJ, Marmalade and Mike, yes! thank you all for being who you are,

love and light,

nicole

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

: )

Everyone, please remember that I said, to paraphrase myself, if we discuss the truth WITH THE IDEA THAT WE CAN CAPTURE IT IN WORDS, it gets farther away from us. 

We don't hold the truth, it holds us.

I didn't say we shouldn't dialogue.  Indeed, old masters such as Lao Tzu left us with some nice words about the truth, but the sum-total of his words were not meant to capture the truth, or “give” it to others– definitely not meant to create some paradigm in which Lao and those who believed just like him were custodians of the truth whom everyone else better listen to.  No, with all his words, Lao simply pointed “the way.” 

Was it different with Buddha? 

In his real and actual teachings, was it different with Jesus?

I say no…

I say there have always been those who used language to help themselves and others move beyond language.  But they did it in egolessness, and they did not create followers, trying to decipher and live by every word…. but journeyers, seeking the universal truth beyond their or any language. 

but there I go, using words again!  :-D

Time to take my bow and let the curtain close…

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

yes, my dear, do bow and let the curtain close after another masterful performance, but do come back, more often! you bring such a unique and delightful perspective to this group.

love and light to you and S. as you enjoy another day in paradise,

nicole

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Hi, Alan, it's good you didn't take the bait… :-)

I once wanted to say something similar to Ken Wilber.  I'd come across his books in bookstores and say to myself, “What is this?  You can't chart Truth!  You can't capture Spirit in a graph!”

But my views have changed.  It is still true that Truth, in the spiritual sense, cannot be “captured” in our charts or our words.  But that is only one “type” or level of truth.  There are other small-t truths that are important, and there are many different “ways” that have been laid out (each with its own relative value), and we can appreciate these things too as gestures of Spirit.  Even the mind that can perceive and appreciate the complex interrelationships among these relative truths – that can exclaim, Look at how they beautifully unfold!  Look at how they dance across time, space, and knowing! – can be understood as a movement in and with Spirit.

If you mistake Integral for Truth, for a Timeless Way, that is problematic.  But such complexity of thought and perception (although there is an underlying simplicity that says, Look, all these things are creative expressions of our native perspectives!) need not stand in opposition to The Way.  The Way gave birth to the human brain, after all – the most complexly interrelated system in the known universe, that itself can dance new worlds into being. 

Can our appreciation be broad enough to take it all in?

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Balder,

This seems to accept as truth an 'interpretation' that Spirit is in the world so that one could perceive and exclaim, Look at how they beautifully unfold!  Look at how they dance across time, space, and knowing!” 

KW seems holds to this interpretation as well, with his emphasis on 'evolution to/of Spirit' and he seems to inform that by studying the evolutionary development of relative truths, that are illusion, we can then evolve to knowing the ultimate universal Truth (big 'T'). This seem to require an interpretive “appreciation” of the relative truths that we “perceive.” Yet, It is easy to SEE beauty in the world when we enfold our “perceptions” within that quality/concept, but then that points to the idea that the quality/concept of “beauty” is in the mind and essentially NOT in the world. Therefore, Truth must be a quality NOT available 'out there,' until we place it  'out there” or align our concepts/thoughts with the will to percieve it in the world. (oops, this sounds like Kant).

If Integral continues to take us 'out there,'  does it not maintain our fixated obsession with qualities/concepts such as beauty, goodness and truth as inherent in the things themselves, rather than that which we infuse the things with? In fact, does seeking the good, beauty and Truth in the thing-in-itself, merely idolize perception as the quintessential measure of knowledge?

Maybe there is NO Spirit 'out there,' only 'in here,' through which I choose to enfold 'out there' into. The problem is that if I continue to believe Spirit is 'out there' it becomes easier to take myself out of the loop, so to speak. I (we) allow Spirit to dance in the world based on my (our) interpretation that it should be 'out there' and not that it really is, because nothing is 'out there' if it is all illusional. We place it there, not Source/God. Spirit does not provide “gestures,” we do. In fact, we control the presence of Spirit because Spirit is us and knowing this will allow us to provide ever deeper and greater “gestures” until soon it is all we SEE.

It is all of the mind and that includes belief in the perception of a “brain.” This might be a superficial aspect to seeking Spirit, but I tend to think it may be an important distinction allowing for us to take greater responsibilty for our current default thought processing and thus, self-imposed suffering. Thus, if Spirit is 'in here,' and not 'out there,' then the more I correspond with my perceptions through Spirit “within,” the more I enfold 'out there' into Spirit and essentially alter the illusional perception.

No?

just saying…

Thanks
mike S

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Hi, Mike,

I think this misses the subtlety of what is involved in the Integral view.  Breaking things down into an either/or choice of “out there” or “in here” is not adequate, because out and in are co-arising and co-determining.  The claim is not that truth, beauty, or whatever, exist unto themselves out there in things-in-themselves, but neither is it that these things are “only” in us (which would render the relationship between our perceptions and outer things purely arbitrary).

The exclamation I made – Look at how beautifully they unfold – is itself a contingent perspective.  It is not arbitrary, but it is also not something that will occur to everyone at every point in their development.  My six-year-old son will not notice the unfolding complexity and “beauty” of many worldviews and worldspaces…he won't be capable of having such a perspective until he gets more mature.

The point I was making to Alan, though, was simply that focusing only on Truth in its ultimate nature – as he is doing, as the Tao that Can't Be Named – may overlook the value and validity of the many relative truth distinctions that may be made as well.  There is a point at which distinction-making is taken to set one at odds with The Way.  But there are other perspectives – say, Dzogchen rather than Taoism or Zen – which find that distinctions do not obstruct the Way at all.  They ornament it and can be celebrated as well.

Best wishes,

Balder

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Balder,

A six year old may be deeply involved in corresponding experientially with Spirit, yet gradually taught to interpret that experience UNspiritually and thus possibly more stifled. Maybe the various teachings we instill on childhood from birth, facilitate the seeing of a complexity that did not exist prior to our relative conditioning effects.

Nevertheless, if such were true then I suppose we would then be required to rely on an evolutionary developmental perspective in order to access the “Spirit” that was inadvertently removed or conditioned out of us in order that we better “perceive” the relativity of experience, as opposed to the unity of experience.

I'm not sure what you mean by “co-arising” or “co-determining” since it seems that there very well could be a collective  'belief' factor which determines what arises, but that seems arbitrary, rather then contingent on the belief of that collective consciousness or One Mind that connects us all. This may essentially be the 'intention' that determines our perceptions.

I only present the 'in here' or 'out there' perspective since, if it is a matter of 'in here,' then that might cause us to realize a greater personal responsibility to what happens 'out there.' And that allows all to participate and in fact requires it, in terms of a “skulpting of he universe” (kinda of a “no mind left behind” policy) whereas it seems the integral view allows greater responsibilty only to those more consciously advanced. (kind of an Adi Da perspective).

just saying…
mike S

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Mike, I'm glad you're “just saying” instead of insisting!

I definitely believe that children can have meaningful spiritual experiences, but I think you'd be engaging in retro-romanticism if you are asserting that children are inherently “more spiritual” or that complexity itself is somehow “wrong” or “unspiritual.”

I am not sure why you think Integral implies that responsibility is only in the hands of the consciously advanced.  According to Integral Postmetaphysics, we are all engaged in “sculpting” the universe – we all have a share of responsibility in that.

I also do not ultimately oppose the relativity of perspectives and the oneness of things.  Oneness doesn't necessarily imply uniformity.

Best wishes,

Balder

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

There is the Tao and then there are the Ten Thousand Things.

The is the eternal potential and there is the finite manifestation.

That we all can look inward to TOUCH the eternal potential does not mean it is only there.

What do we call the Panentheistic God that is both the One and the Many? OM? (That's that other thread, sorry)

Perhaps I have not yet reached the level of non-duality. Maybe then I'll get it.

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Good Grief! How could I even think that, I mean, let's face it, the mature mind has done wonders for the world in so many relative ways. Everybody knows the “Pope” is more spiritual than my children who do not go to church (let alone, the Catholic Church).

Alas, I suppose I will always be a “retro-romantic” in attempting to understand the “postmetaphysics” of the “integral view.” Nevertheless, I suppose what I meant to say is that skulpting of the universe is based on the “intrinsic value” of those consciously advanced. The greater intrinsic value the greater “complexity” and therefore, the greater participation in the skulpting. No?

Uniformity? No, unified Oneness. Uniformity relates to choices. Unity or wholeness is unrelated to relative choices and that may be why it is ultimate freedom. Nevertheless, relativity implies choices and thus choices made based on “value.” Which, I suppose, is exactly what we believe in currenlty, 'developmental value' and the Integral view merely incorporates that perspective in its interpretation of spirituality.

Actually, “complexity” may not be unspiritual, just distracting.

but, again, I'm just saying…

Thanks,
mike S

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Mike,

You wrote:  Good Grief! How could I even think that, I mean, let's face it, the mature mind has done wonders for the world in so many relative ways. Everybody knows the “Pope” is more spiritual than my children who do not go to church (let alone, the Catholic Church).

The mature mind has brought both good and ill to the world.  Greater potential for good also brings with it greater potential for harm.

“Spiritual” can be understood in many different ways.  If by Spiritual you mean positive (relative) values such as morality, altruism, compassion, wisdom, etc, then it's hard to get around the fact that these are all qualities that are subject to maturational development.  We aren't just born having the moral vision of Gandhi or Jesus.  But if by spiritual you mean something like oneness with Spirit, or infusion by Spirit, then you could say that there's not an iota of difference between the child and the elder – except that the child, being less wounded and conflicted, is perhaps more innocently open to it. 

In my view, both perspectives have merit.  There is the vertical connection to spirit, and then the horizontal means of expression.  The former may be more or less occluded, and the latter is subject to growth and development and may expand to express spiritual insight in greater fullness and with more subtlety of appreciation.

You wrote:  Alas, I suppose I will always be a “retro-romantic” in attempting to understand the “postmetaphysics” of the “integral view.” Nevertheless, I suppose what I meant to say is that skulpting of the universe is based on the “intrinsic value” of those consciously advanced. The greater intrinsic value the greater “complexity” and therefore, the greater participation in the skulpting. No?

What do you mean by sculpting?  For instance, do you mean influencing cultural beliefs and practices?  Do you mean articulating spiritual visions and systems?  Typically, adults do have greater influence.  Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, etc, are all Ways that have flowered out of the teachings of adults, not children.

This is not a comment on the ultimate, spiritual, ground value of children.  From that perspective, they are, of course, infinitely precious.

You wrote:  Uniformity? No, unified Oneness. Uniformity relates to choices. Unity or wholeness is unrelated to relative choices and that may be why it is ultimate freedom. Nevertheless, relativity implies choices and thus choices made based on “value.” Which, I suppose, is exactly what we believe in currenlty, 'developmental value' and the Integral view merely incorporates that perspective in its interpretation of spirituality.

It appears to me that you value the perspective you are offering more than the one Integral offers.  No?

You wrote:  Actually, “complexity” may not be unspiritual, just distracting.

Why is it distracting?  It can also be an occasion for wonder and appreciation.  If you are saying it's “inherently distracting,” you are contradicting your earlier “in here” emphasis.

Best wishes,

Balder

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Balder,

I have no actual concrete “perspective” to value more than any other, although I do have “leanings.” However, it is true that I feel there are discrepancies to the integral theory as advocated by KW, however, I do believe in an integrative view of self and reality and, in fact, find much worthy in KW's theory as well. But I do feel this integration is to transcendence, but transformation.(and I believe there is a difference)

What do you mean by sculpting?  For instance, do you mean influencing cultural beliefs and practices?  Do you mean articulating spiritual visions and systems?  Typically, adults do have greater influence.

Yes, clearly adults have more influence on the right quadrants, however, there may be merit to the lower left being infused with Spirit through a return to perspectives that are less complex and intellectually bound up. A return to 'innocence,' so to speak (not to be confused with the book title). In this sense the minds study of relative truths or perceptive reality may have the potential to distract from Spirit within, thereby impeding the infusion or enfoldment of Spirit “into” perception so that incorporating a spiritual vision into our perception or, rather, interpretation of reality may be obstructed. My concern is that the theoretical considerations of integral mapping may impede, rather then aid in evolving consciousness.

And to be more clear on my particular perspective, as opposed to KW, I do believe, tentatively, that consciousness has great relevance on even physical reality and so i suppose this may relate to my reference of sculpting the “Kosmos.” Thus, to date, I am an idealist and I believe consciousness has more involvement in altering the objects of consciousness then we can currently understand. I sense KW moves away from this since it seems to negate evolution.
My “in here” reference does not necessarily incorporate intellect as the “positional location” of Spiritual truth. But yes I suppose the intellect can apply interpretations of wonder and appreciation, yet maybe this interpretation is based on something else, some deeper truth unknown to intellect but corresponded with in particular moments.

I'm off to work now, but thanks for the dialogue. I am not necessarily a critic of integral theory, however, I do have “issues.”

Thanks,
mike S

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Mike and Bruce, thanks for extending the dialogue…

peace,

nicole

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Words are so limited and at the same time are what makes humans human. Our ability to transfer very complex ideas back in forth the what separates us from the other beautiful living creatures on this earth. And yet there is so much that remains unspeakable.

The classic image, trapped halfway between heaven and earth. Ah, the human condition. 

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

and yet angels are said to honour humanity … that always gives me pause

peace

nicole

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

We can take the complex view,
we can take the simple view
The ant in the field
and the hawk in the sky
see the same lovely Earth.

Love,

Julie

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Lovely!  Well said, Julie.

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

{blush} Thanks!

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Love Ken Wilber’s work…. glad there is someone who is doing just what he is doing, pursuing the map of knowldege and awareness in a way that is integrated…. Which is not to be confused with the truth, spirit or any thing else. While for Ken it is a spiritual path, and a passion, as well as a deeply philosophical process, it is wonderful to have the ciritcism of the “no words necessary” to explain the beauty of life. Never let our picture or map of the universe get in the way of our direct love and experience of it!

I think that throughout the ages hundreds of souls have been called to describe aspects of the truth. Many are in pictoral form, like the chart of KW, but many are in mandalas as in buddhism, or in symbols, or in parables. The best ones are artists as well as logicians and not so much interested in proof as in pointing the way and its frankly beautiful…. Ken, you are an artist of philosophical words!….

All in all its is just what the ancient one said, the sage points at the moon, while we get lost in his finger.

I have enjoyed all aspects of this thread!

Peace,
Donbear

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Don I think I was trying to say the same as you and Julie only you both did it much more gracefully.

Deep bows

Nicole

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

tears of joy

How I love you, Joshua! You warm my heart with this delightful ocean dream… did you notice I am longing for the ocean so much, and write that just to make my happy? Anyway, what a precious gift. Thank you, chaver sheli!

Shalom and brightness to you,

Nicole

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, lol all that

:-D

And Amen

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

splashing Alan with the warm sea water…

come swimming with me! you've done enough cartwheels on the beach for now :)

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

I'm ready for that party!!!

Already we know bits of each other even through this little apparatus. It is good.

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

c'mon in, J! water's great, surf's up and there's great tropical food on the blankets on the beach if you get hungry… :):)

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Yayyyy for the simple life! Hurray for simplicity.

When you live away from 'it all' it just brings a different look to things. It's not that you're doing less or that you have less responsibility, you just have less clutter and noise to make decisions. It's like that analogy of the 'Too much choice dilemma' in reverse… And you actually get to do a couple enjoyable and growth centred things pretty much every day.

I think it's safe to say than Alan and I do a tremendous amount of energy work from here, but receiving direct energies and intelligence from the beauty surrounding makes such a difference in being clear and effective.

We so want to share this type of atmosphere with other energy workers, people committed to the cause of transmitting only positivity to their section of the world! We expect to evolve ultimately to developing a visitor/residence community just for this purpose really soon… a kind of de-conditioning, re-empowering centre… and the big thinkers we are, to see how we would repeat the concept in different places. We're actively putting our intention towards seeing it happen and things are looking good. :D

We're actually open to having others bring their own 'contribution' in the form of intellectual or other energy since we'd like to have it totally self-sufficient and only optimising natural energy resources, including humans at their creative best. Feel free to shout us out if you have any thoughts we could share. We have our ideas but would rather have a discussion on it rather than fullly impose our own on those who might actually like to be a part of it, either as a visitor or as a resident.

And there'll always be room for Ken Wilber. I think, of all people, he could take a break to simply max and relax as they say. It's gotta be tough ruminating all day long and never coming to a conclusion!

Warmest wishes to you all while we get back to 'business'.

Love, sherri

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

ok, Sherri, you and Alan definitely need to start a new thread about that ok? I'm very interested to learn more about how your vision is unfolding… not just for an excuse to come to your beautiful tropical island!

Really! Not just that!

LOL!

Love, light and peace,

Nicole

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Cool!  A beach party!!

I'll bring my stick and scratch pictures of quadrants and graphs in the sand!!







Not.  :-)

I'll leave my stick on the shore.  I'll be floating, buoyed, on the soft warm bosom of the sea…

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Good! Someone to swim with at last… isn't it lovely just floating on the waves… mmmm

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

I'm a swimmin' fool, especially in clear warm waters. I may indeed need to take some time to contemplate the sand, but the day is long and time is plenty!

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

we have all the time in the world - who says the beach party has to be limited to today? LOL
glad to have your company in this lovely tropical ocean, J!

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

“woooooo hooooo - pardon me for butting right in here, but somebody say party?”  she says as she belines to the water, shark raft in hand :)

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

ok shirl is here the party is officially in high gear!

moving hastily out of the way as shirl splashes all and sundry in her haste to get immersed

LOLOL!

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Re: My open letter/all I ever wanted to say to Ken Wilber

Hey, Nicole… just because all that sherri said is true, doesn't mean I'm not swimming with you… quite the opposite, in fact!  The best part of a new simplicity paradigm is, ofthen, the best thing you can do for the world is frolic in the ocean.  (you learn good lessons there too… as my blog shows.  Watch those waves!!)

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