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Jim on Meditation and Propositional StatementsMarmalade said May 6, 7:17 PM: |
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This is a post from a thread over at the Integral Post-metaphysical Spirituality pod. I really like this viewpoint. Re: Translation versus Transformation Jim said 16 minutes ago:Hi Balder. in an earlier letter you described the relaxation response and the “theologue state.” Would you feel comfortable making the propositional statement that, “It is true that these states or experiences are available to those who 'go far enough' with the practice of certain forms of meditation'”?No, I would not feel comfortable making such an assertion. I would feel comfortable saying that it is the case that decades of research shows that most people studied who do a simple relaxation technique (that is sometimes referred to as a meditation technique - I don't want to quibble with those who want to limit the use of the term “meditation” to only those things that they say count as meditation) present the set of physiological responses that are known as “the relaxation response.” In a previous comment or letter, I referred to “the kind of state depicted in Alex Grey's painting Theologue.” I made the reference by way of explanation, but I think that the phrase “the kind of state depicted in Alex Grey's painting Theologue” is too vague to be of any use in an argument. Do I personally believe that there is a state that can be realized in meditation that is “the kind of state depicted in Alex Grey's painting Theologue”? Yes. But I would avoid making assertions about the matter for the simple reason that I don't think there is any way I could defend the assertion without violating what I consider good standards of right speech and dialogical ethics. Let's say that someone were to say, “Jim, I think that your belief that the kind of state depicted in Grey's painting can be realized in meditaton is a New Age fantasy.” How could I respond to that? Some people respond to such challenges by saying things like, “You obviously haven't had the requisite meditative or mystical experience, for if you did, you would not say what you just said.” To me, that kind of response, which I call “the meditation card” (a term I borrow from Gadfly, a poster to the now defunct Ken Wilber Forum) is no more legitimate than planting evidence on a suspect in order to effect an arrest and conviction. I don't say there are no exceptions; I think there can be cases when it is ethically okay to plant evidence, and there may be cases when it is ethically okay to play the meditation card. But as a rule it is something I prefer to avoid. I prefer to avoid it because it violates standards of discourse, e.g., as articulated by Habermas, that I think are necessary for democratic societies. When I was an instructor of mindfulness courses, my approach was “Try it and see for yourself.” I did not think it was a good idea to make claims or promises about meditation. To me, that would be like promising someone that they will love Handel's operas if they listen to them. What if they don't? Do I then say, “Tsk tsk, you're not sophisticated enough to appreciate such fine music”? You and I contributed to a thread started by Julian at his blog where we talked about the merits of pathologizing certain kinds of beliefs. It seemed that you and I agreed that it's not particularly useful or skillful to pathologize beliefs or those who hold them. (E.g., if someone believes that Jesus was born of a virgin, I see no reason to characterize their belief or them as pathological.) I also do not consider it useful or skillful to pathologize people who are skeptical about meditation. If they say things I can argue against, then I will do so, but I will try to do so by sticking to what I consider certain standards of discourse. And I don't think playing the meditation card (or the higher level card, e.g., “You're not at my level”) meets those standards. A few years ago I attended a Consciousness East & West symposium at Northwestern, the main event of which was a debate between Alan Wallace and John Searle. It was painful for me to hear Wallace telling an auditorium full of people that from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective, their minds - he said something like “the Western mind” - is profoundly “dysfunctional.” The subtext was that Alan Wallace's mind, after all the meditation he's done, was more profoundly functional than the profoundly dysfunctional minds of all the non-meditators in the audience. The Buddhist practitioner who accompanied me to this event was as disgusted as I was with Wallace's approach to presenting Buddhist ideas to a general audience. We both felt that he came across as stiff, uptight, holier-than-thou, and arrogant. (Maybe it was jet lag.) In contrast, John Searle was engaging, relational, and genuinely funny. After the debate I introduced myself to Searle and told him that I was a meditator and that I wanted to assure him that not all meditators felt as Wallace did, that meditation is something that everyone needs. I hope I'm making sense. (If I'm not, my excuse is that I'm physically and emotionally exhausted from dealing with family health problems.) My main concerns are with right speech and ethical discourse. Best, Jim |
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Re: Jim on Meditation and Propositional StatementsNicole said May 7, 5:16 AM: |
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Jim is awesome. Thanks for cross-posting this here. My sincere hope is that one day Jim will have the interest and time to post here directly… but in the meantime we can enjoy the reflected glow of his posts elsewhere. |
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Re: Jim on Meditation and Propositional StatementsNegoba said May 7, 6:42 AM: |
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Just last night I worked through Wilber's introduction to the transpersonal states. I have dabbled in meditation (though I did not realize the limitations before) in various ways over the years. |
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Re: Jim on Meditation and Propositional StatementsNicole said May 7, 7:04 AM: |
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Very well said! I keep wanting to meditate far more than I actually do though I know the benefits… and I agree that Wilber can be far too dismissive. Much prefer Jim's approach. |
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Re: Jim on Meditation and Propositional StatementsMarmalade said May 7, 2:03 PM: |
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What stood out to me was Jim's thoughts on discourse. I totally agree that in a dialogue our personal experience, no matter how significant to us, can't be held above the experience of others. Our experience always informs what we say but unless its shared by the other its not helpful in communicating. We can only offer our experience. I also agree with Jim “that it's not particularly useful or skillful to pathologize beliefs or those who hold them.” I've never read Habermas, but maybe I'll look into his ideas. |
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Re: Jim on Meditation and Propositional StatementsNicole said May 8, 3:09 AM: |
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Thanks so much, Marmalade! I highly recommend the meditation thread (and indeed that other group that Bruce has cultivated so well) to any of you who have the time to enjoy it. There is a lot to ponder there, to meditate on :) |
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Re: Jim on Meditation and Propositional StatementsNegoba said May 8, 12:30 PM: |
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Last night I was making an attempt to meditate, and reflexively, I found myself praying. In the old way, addressing God directly more as a conversation. It felt natural. No return thoughts came this night as they sometimes have in the past. But it felt right. It did not feel “mythic” or immature. It just was. |
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Re: Jim on Meditation and Propositional Statementsmike S said May 8, 1:27 PM: |
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Hi Guys, I have experienced some rather psychedelic-type experiences in the past, when i was actively practicing, yet, it is always funny how the rational mind/brain inteprets and adapts these experiences to the “worldview” or self-perspective. I hold the same opinion on prayer which I have also practiced in many forms. Communication with Spirit can occur on many levels and in many serendipituos ways. Seeking to alter, remove or adjust conditions to improve communication can also inadvertently obstruct communication. |
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Re: Jim on Meditation and Propositional StatementsNicole said May 8, 5:02 PM: |
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yeah! mike and negoba, gotta keep it real. sometimes that means praying to God as a trusted friend. sometimes it is just being with God, just reveling in the silence at the centre of all things. |
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Re: Jim on Meditation and Propositional StatementsMarmalade said May 8, 5:23 PM: |
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Our experiences(meditation or otherwise) can inform and be informed by our views(whether religious, psychological, or social). But our experiences don't need to justify or be justified by our views. Similar experiences can be interpreted in endless ways, and there are infinite goals towards which our experiences can be applied… but what we experience in meditation doesn't need to be put into any external context. Meditation may have positive influences on our lives, but my sense is that such results are secondary. |
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