And now for something a little different.

O.K., I would have never thought I would be on a topic such as this but strange mental tectonic plates are at work in my life. A little backstory: one of my best friends, a fellow I have known since I was really young and have kept in rather close contact to the present has had a life that is far from the norm. As a youngster, he was rather rebellious like myself we used to skateboard and caused some trouble. Although, he took up smoking weed and doing mushrooms when we were still in Junior high (Which at that age I thought was pretty bad shit, I never touched it untill after graduating). Anyway, nearing the end of his high school years he started really committing himself to school, working out and taking up the guitar.. He excelled radically in all three areas. He jumped from like a C student to an A student within a few months. He went from being rather overweight to skinny muscular and became a really good musician, playing at a nearby folkfest… (as a friend it was a really cool transformation to witness ~ although at that time I was not as close with him as I was previously and now am again).

OK, so he heads off to University and starts a Psych degree… I guess halfway through the year he runs into a troubling time (his family had been devout Christians and he shied away from it most of his life but during this time he turns to Christianity). His schooling goes supurbly, he ends up finishing his third year for example, with the highest GPA in the Arts/Social Sciences. He gets offered (essentially full) scholarships for a PHD in Psychology by some of Canada's best universities and he chooses Waterloo outside Toronto (I think in part due to the proximity to certain churches and because it is a solid place to study). OK, I have been immersed in Integral thought for the five years and the two of us have had really amazing conversations. Then about a year and a half ago I met Dave (my friend) in a cafe in our hometown. I was reflecting on something and this hit a chord with him he totally opened up about some of his recent experiences (that he was afraid to tell me about) namely, that he had recently started to have these mystical experiences. Visions, prophetic words, speaking in tongues ect. We talked over the course of 4 days, for about I'm guesses 20 hours on these topics. I have considered Dave to have great integrity (even when he was rebellious youth he still was always honest with me). So, I do really think he is having these experiences (and this is a hard thing for many of his old friends to square as two years ago they were astonished with with his abilites in the world now he is to some measure being written off a Christian nut ~ thi saspect of the story saddens me). (I find the integral lens is helping a lot to square this part of what he is saying and the stories he tells me). It gets a little bit more odd however. So, there is this big revival in Florida which he will be attending on Wednesday. The revival is occurring presently and has been going since April (broadcast on the big Christian network GODTV). The reverends are very unusual which is fine but, it is this weird mixture of baptist with liberalism… a big focus of what they are doing is on miracles as they say this essential component of Christianity has been nearly forgotten and they are preaching radical changes through these churches that will soon be spreading around the world. So, my firend is going down to this revival.

This is what I have difficulty squaring (to some extent) a friend who is brilliant and I think has great integrity and a church that preaches radical miracles (like fixing broken bones by means of prayer), some liberal notions (certainly not all are liberal). I have partially resolved it in that I think he is having proper psychic/subtle level experiences yet his interpretive framework is left somewhat wanting…. (there is very much from what I can ascertain a degree of hostility to other religions in this revival… one of the bigger pastors suggested last night that “India will be transformed there will be a huge transformation in India and the dirty Hindus hanging by the river Ganges will become true Christians… there is also the notion that being gay is much like a disease). Anyway its a strange place for me to be in, I love the guy and recognize his radical uniquenesses and continually try to bump him toward a more integral framework…. but what can you do right… (And I am almost certain there are some verity of miracles taking place there just from the word of my friends mystical experiences). it is an interesting time that's for sure and an interesting spot to be in! What do ya'll think?

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Re: And now for something a little different.

Ultimately there's not much you can do. The religious mental technologies, which it sounds like your friend is using, are pretty strong, and their internal defensive mechanisms are even stronger.

It's pretty easy to generate visionary states, and they are really rewarding and convincing when you are in them. So, chances are the rewards he's getting from these experiences will very much outweigh most off the things you can say.

Honest curiousity and interest, while staying centered in your own world view, is about the best thing you can do. A _relative_ reduction in judgement can also help - which means making your own best judgements, but being gentle about how you decide to make your friend listen to them.

And wait. Visionary periods have their own internal clock and logics - they don't last all that long usually - months, maybe a few years - so, just wait. Things will change.

Altho usually visionary periods color a persons world view for a long long time after.

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Re: And now for something a little different.

Thinks Bill, appreciate the thoughts on this! It is a difficult position as i have not really had (many or well any) visionary experiences ~ it makes sense that I ought to try to continue  to make an effort with this friendship and maintain “honest curiosity and interest” but not give way on my own position on these topics (thanks, for your thoughts!)

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Re: And now for something a little different.

I would agree with Bill. This story sounds familiar. Much too so. Most of my closest friends are similar to this person whom you describe… not so much by choice but by fate. I have found some great pre-trans explainations that, at least, provoke healthy neutral dialogue. http://www.praetrans.com/en/ptf.html
Only with a few can I make much headway, but I have to be wary of being an integral crusader also. I have altogether shut up unless people ask what I am up to. There is certainly a pattern of growth which should happen naturally. I think on the whole, you can see that in your friend and that should be encouraging. We each have our our puzzle piece-finding adventure to live. It is easy to feel upset and even abandoned or misunderstood when my efforts to inform are miscommunicated. Who knows if futher development will occur? Hell, maybe I am the one who is “more” wrong. But, if I think this integral thing is, at least, an advance, I need to put a bit of “faith” in the system.
My job, I have found, is to open doors and put out fires. That is to say, macro-manage movement and flow through that stage. I want others to be able to live their own adventure and even go over the edge sometimes. I think its an essential part. Damage control, though, is the concern. Sustainable degeneration. I have no idea what success is supposed to look like, but failure usually ends in a hostile, closed, and extremist reaction.

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Re: And now for something a little different.

It's nice to go over that short post on Pre/trans it has been a few years since i tore through SES and there are some novel things that I am now able to re-frame a little… thanks. It is a peculiar thing as he is in my opinion a rather rational guy in MOST of his life but in this area i think your right there is a big chunk or pre mixed with trans going on there.

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Re: And now for something a little different.

you know, i think it's important not to get too judgmental about other people's lives. i don't know your friend and i'm not sure what this all means in his life. but for him, this may be a necessary stage through to something. feel how exciting it must be for him to be having all these mystical experiences and to feel part of something so “big” - a movement that is “sweeping through the world”! The rush can be breathtaking, and cool Integral thought not nearly as exciting or compelling by comparison.

The more I learn and the more I come to understand, the less I feel I have to fix or change my friends. Each of us has to live her or his own life. It's all good.

Peace,

Nicole

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Re: And now for something a little different.

Nicole,
I agree, although judging is so natural. Ken says everyone is right…just some more than others. That is judging. I think its helpful to an extent. I was reading somewhere on the pod about daily tasks and differentiating. Just getting to the front door we have to differentiate between walls and doors.

“feel how exciting it must be for him to be having all these mystical experiences and to feel part of something so “big” - a movement that is “sweeping through the world”! The rush can be breathtaking, and cool Integral thought not nearly as exciting or compelling by comparison.”

I like this thought a lot. Just as some of us might be excited about integral, this guy has his own version. I can really relate to that. Making a dialogue that doesn't seem like a selling of integral ideas or degrading of his ideas is a bit harder. I'd be interested in your ideas on that. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but up until a point. Free speech isn't free if it is demonizing the rest.
Christianity doesn't need integral but integral needs christianity. As much as intergral is and needs to be thoughtful in its approach, I don't think its in human nature to sit back and submit to the will of others. But maybe that is the approach that integral should take. Although, I think its been lost in christianity, that was the example of Jesus, a person who I see as very much beyond integral.

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Re: And now for something a little different.

Please don't get me wrong Nicole… I love Dave!!! He is a totally beautiful person in so, so many ways! For example, I think he has more of an open heart  and wisdom than I do (in many directions) ;) I just am troubled as to how I ought to relate to him. If I ought to continue with the integral talk (forcefully or subtly) if I ought to relate to him on other issues (if I ought to temporarily break off communications). I think I will continue with the subtle integral talk…. but truly maintain interest in what he is experiencing, as he has had far more visions than I and that is amazing in and of itself!! But, I think what Courtland is saying (and sorry if I'm over stepping my bounds here but…) The devil is in the details… and thats important for him and his relations with other… but he is his own entity and so, I can only have so much affect on him. To some massively large extent he will change with life conditions. Its such a beautiful mess. And I want to hear more of your lovely thoughts!

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Re: And now for something a little different.

I was lying in bad & came up with some possible landmarks for Dave. Cognition Turquoise/teal Values Amber/purple and CofG probs Green (and a nature mystic). HAHA

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Re: And now for something a little different.

It is probably important also to make a distinction about how women and men would approach the relationship. A masculine way invloves a lot of labeling so that we can mentally put things in persepctive and make rapid decisions in the quickly changing landscape on safari.
big, strong, fangs, claws, tiger
soft, furry, purr, nice kitty
A women on the other hand would be focused on how to work the inner space.
The point is that we should to clarify if we are talking about architecture or interior decorating. Once that space has been properly created, I think its totally legit to toss aside the heirarchy.

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Re: And now for something a little different.

This is getting into really touchy pre-personal post-personal stuff. But what of miracles (or, spontaneously produced subtle occurrences) and how ought they be approached from an integral perspective (and I am assuming many different kinds of integral approaches here)… That is, when you strongly think a friend of yours is experiencing (futurist visions, words of insight for others, healing through subtle energies) but the translation of these experiences due to the framework the person is working within are translated with somewhat of an exclsivist slant. Moreover, you sense his/her ability to work within a bigger vision, a larger framework… and to do so ths person would produce much more good for the organisms on the planet (and for him/herself). The states are present, the cognition is present but the  framework to house the two is lacking radically! I am just for the most part re-hashing what was said above. Thanks for your ideas on this Courtland they are appreciated.

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