Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

Over at HOLONS there's a 10-minute FREE audio clip of David Deida talking about stages of sexual development using a Buddhist metaphor.  Check it out:

David Deida - Exploring Sexual Stages with Buddhists

In this provocative clip, David Deida explains how the three major schools of Buddhist thought reflect the stages of psycho-sexual maturity, and how these stages play themselves out in our spiritual practices and in our relationships. What does conflict look like from each of these stages? How can we use this understanding to help us respond to the world from our highest possible selves, moment by moment? Listen to this free clip to find out!

“So the real question is: are you in a Hinayana moment, a Mahayana moment, or a Vajrayana moment when your woman is throwing something at you?” - David Deida

click here for free audio! (right-click to download)

Who: Acknowledged as one of the world's most insightful and provocative spiritual teachers of our time, best-selling author David Deida continues to revolutionize the way that men and women grow spiritually and sexually. His teachings and writings on a radically practical spirituality for our time have been hailed as among the most original and authentic contributions to personal and spiritual growth currently available.

Summary: In this provocative clip, David Deida explains how the three major schools of Buddhist thought reflect the stages of psycho-sexual maturity, and how these stages play themselves out in our spiritual practices and in our relationships.

Historically, the Buddhist tradition has developed through three major schools or “turnings” of thought and practice.

- The first school was the Hinayana tradition, with it's emphasis upon escaping the cycle of suffering altogether, achieved in large part through disciplined renunciation of thought, emotion, pleasure, desire, etc.

- The second school of Buddhism, known as the Mahayana tradition, seeks to more fully engage the world of form. Rather than avoiding or simply observing negative thoughts and emotions, the Mahayana tradition places more emphasis upon using spiritual practice to transform negative into positive.

- The third school of Buddhist thought, the Vajrayana tradition, also strives to engage the world of form in a much more direct way—but rather than using the mind to transform things like fear, pain, hatred, and desire into their more positive counterparts, they are experienced and worked with exactly as they are, allowing “the poison to become the wisdom.” When we allow ourselves to experience the darkest corners of our souls openly and honestly, precisely as they are, they can become powerful sources of energy—leading us to the eternal stillness at the center of our hearts.

What does conflict look like from each of these stages, and how can we use this understanding in order to help us respond to the world from our highest possible selves, moment by moment? As an example, David describes three possible reactions to anger in a relationship: avoiding the conflict until emotions can settle (the “Hinayana response”), discussing and transmuting the anger for the sake of mutual growth (the “Mahayana response”), and meeting the anger head-on—erotically, perhaps—allowing it to be fully expressed without avoiding it or altering it in any way (the “Vajrayana response”).

While none of these responses can be said to be the “correct” response for all occasions, as any one could very possibly be the most appropriate for any given situation, these do indeed reflect three very different stages of psychological, spiritual, and sexual maturity. As such, each stage is essentially “more correct” than the last, requiring a considerable amount of practice and understanding to fully embrace and embody—for which we are all indebted to such exemplary teachers as David Deida, who are helping all those with the ears to listen to hear the ubiquitous sounds of God and Goddess in erotic communion, birthing the entire universe into existence, moment by precious moment….

(source)

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

Awesome clip!  Deida kicks ass.

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

:=)

I was just listening to this clip this morning…. !Shazam!
It's GoooooD.

~s

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

I appreciate Deida's work. He writes good books, and I have learned a lot from him. But he doesn't get it right on this one. For one thing, the goal for him is “Isness” or emptiness—in other words: horizontal awakening. He doesn't seem to understand that the approaches he refers to as Mahayana and the Vajrayana (as well as the Hinayana) need to combine so that the person opens up both horizontally and vertically.

It's just not true that what he terms the Vajrayana approach is “more correct” than the Mahayana. The Vajrayana approach as it is presented here—“allowing the anger to be fully expressed without altering it in anyway”— leaves us in state-training flatland. This leaves out the vertical dimension, confusing horizontal awakening with vertical evolution. It's rather tragic to present that view as an integral spiritual teaching.

The trouble is: the Buddhist model (and evidently Deida's as well) goes from ego to absolute without a good understanding of the energetic aspect of Being and enough appreciation for vertical development. Ken discusses that shortcoming in Vajrayana here. 


David

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

Nice clip, very lucid.

I think that Deida comes across better live than on the written page.

I'd add that if you have the presence of mind to do any if these practices then you are already way ahead of the game. It sounds more like fine tuning to me.

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

I agree with David above about missing the vertical piece. Maybe Deida talked about that on a different part that wasn't recorded. I think the vertical involves gaining an insight into which version to use and when. Vajrayana without that vertical piece just seems like an adrenaline junkie's dream.
There is something unsettling about the idea that if I am at war and having to kill people that I should really “get into it” and just start blowing people away. It certainly seems like a quick way to get to “is-ness” as I will probably be the next one shot.

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

David, and Courtland also, – thank you for bringing up these excellent points. I completely agree about the absence or bypassing of regard for the vertical potentialities & movement here. I listened to this clip and read around Deida's hijacking of the old Buddhist vehicle terms - an interesting and often useful pursuit if messed with properly - a few days ago and also thought it was rather circumspect.

His work is pretty amazing in many respects, and very insightful, but yes - I thought it was very curious that when you add “Hot Buddhist Sex” to the equation of these vehicles (of transformation) you end up with (*I am going to proceed with sexual metaphors now in honour of Deida!) none other than premature ejaculation of kosmic proportions. 0 to 60 in a flash, destination flatland. Maybe this 'fuck it to smithereens' take on vajrayana is really good in that it blows up its limitations, and in a way shows us how we are still very quick to analyse stuff under the fog of our own wild innate desires, drives. Who gives a shit about the vertical under the momentary excitement of Vajrayana's promise in deida's context? :)
As Courtland says, it's an adrenaline junkies dream!
But alas, with no vertical, there is no erection. With no erection, there is no goal - and definately no 'hot buddhist sex' :), no directionality, nowhere for energy to move into its own funkadelic groove. No way of following the grain of the Kosmos (btw David, that was a really good article to revisit. cheers).

Lisa

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

David, Courtland, Lisaji

I'm enjoying your critiques.

So that I understand you more clearly, would you please humour someone (me!) who still has difficulties with “wilberspeak”, specifically your shared use of the term “vertical” in this case.  Could I ask you to give real life human examples of what you mean when you talk about “the vertical”?

All The Best

James

P.S. David I revisited the conversation between Wilber and Cohen via your link but couldn't find much use of the term there to try to help me clarify this

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

James,
Here is my metaphor:
Let's say I work on the 20th floor of a 50 floor office building. I have an important job, I can make all kind of color copies of my face with the new xerox machine, flirt with the cute new interns, win in the weekly rolling desk chair race, and even hold a good match on the online office chess game. BUT, what in the hell am I doing for the company? I will never get the corner CFO office on the 49th floor doing any of that. There is only one way to get there: the elevator. Switching religions briefly, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”  -Matthew 7:13-14
The moment is all we have to work with, but meaning only comes out of connecting the moments. They say that if women ruled the world, we would all starve and if men ruled it, nobody would touch anyone. I think Deida is addressing an unbalance and emphasizing the feminine, horizontal, yang(or yin), whatever side of things. In some sense, it is a feminist idea. All fine and good. The danger with feminisim is that things might actually become feminine; we might lose the masculine. Throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak.
Maybe someone has a more technical definition for you, but I hope this helps to understand at least how I am using the word “vertical”.
~Courtland

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

Hi Courtland

Thanks for taking the time and effort to reply.

I have to admit that despite your efforts I'm still struggling to get clear on the meaning of the term vertical,  as used by you and David and Lisaji in your comments above. I know, I'm a bit slow  :-(

Can you give me an example from your own experience whereby you benefitted from the inclusion of  a vertical perspective? This I think would really help me to understand your comments more clearly.

Thanks again

James

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

James,
I think that link on states and stages should be really helpful. That's the theory. And in that article there are some good examples.
Personally, those specific words give me a prime example in my own life. I played around with substances in high school and a bit in the beginning of college. I think there was some growth in there as well, but looking back on it, I don't attribute it to the usage. I think I had experiences and insights(state changes) that certainly benefitted me, but I don't think they got me moving along the path. They just gave me different perspectives of the moment in which I was. There wasn't really a practice involved. From the state point of view, I think, it was beneficial, but I think one fools himself to confuse it with a vehicle for progress. In the words of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, cheap grace. I stopped everything since then. I smoke tobacco some but nothing else. I don't even drink. That has been a real practice. The roots of which dig into my life.
It was interesting how such a silly thing changes things, on the outside and inside. Outwardly, I realized how many people cling to such a silly thing. I lost a lot of friends, I don't think it was due to self-righteousness as much as a mechanism for bonding that I tore out between friends. It is a powerful mechanism, but now, to me, it seems like a very weak and superficial one by which I see SO many people abide even those for whom I have a lot of respect, not many, I might add. It turns into a real cultural and personal hurdle at some point. Maybe it has a purpose. So that was the practice. It made and still makes me a cultural outsider. I live in South America now and I only know one person that doesn't drink even a little. I have a few friends that do but don't base relationships around it.
Anyway, all that said and missing some other details, through something like that, I have grown, not just in perspective of the moment but in awareness through the moment. A subtle but important difference. The difference between horizontal and vertical. This idea of fucking or whatever of which Deida speaks is like taking a drug and having an experience…to me. At least in the clip, he doesn't get into the vertical piece. I am not a fan of his work..nor against it, but many people have told me that they feel that it is a tool to be used in the context of an exclusive healthy relationship. Outside that, it isn't very practical. Without talking about the vertical, it seems as though there are no boundries…etc. I think he was trying to express that when he was explaining to the guy that he's not old enough to understand the difference. He seemed to be talking like it was a given so I suspect that he understands.
In the broadest sense, these are how morals guide us. In the moment, I can experience god deeply through whatever mechanism, but what I do in this moment affects the options that I will have from which to choose in the next moment. I can experience is-ness by jumping out  of the window of a 2 story building and then i can experience the is-ness of suffering with a few broken bones. its up to whomever, but I, personally, put a premium on quality of experience…I'll leave the masochism for the green's that want to equate it all.

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

Hi James, I'll respond more later—going out the door—but for now have a look at this. 

Best,

David

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

Hi James,

This is no straightforward topic or territory to discuss, that's for sure, and you're
not going to get a bigger understanding in a sentence. Or from further miniscule personal examples, so I too would recommend reading that article David linked you to. It's really interesting and useful. And I would read this one too. They talk lots about the vertical in this one. It's good!

Lisa

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

Hi James,

Yes, I see your point 100%. I still think miniscule personal examples can sometimes further confuse understanding stuff like this, and that it's best to jump in full throttle, get involved in the actual practices that invoke insights and to work it out from there yourself. Sometimes in some circumstances, they can further lead us up a steep garden path. Though I am sure David's and Courtland's examples will definately not lead you up a garden path! :) In the context of states and stages, you've got to admit - this is beautiful potential garden path territory.

Maybe it is our individual take what stands for theoretical. In the dialogue between KW & AC for example that I linked you to, that was really personally thrashed out – an easy to understand conversation, that you could then see and grasp through your own levels of current understanding. I thought it was streamlined and bullshit free, to the point - straight from the horses mouth  - I guess stuff like that works for me. But back to you, I hope those inclined come out from the dusty woodwork and furnish this thread with a few more personal examples for you.

Lisa

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

—-clarification: I said: ……to jump in full throttle, get involved in the actual practices that invoke insights and to work it out from there yourself. 

Of course I am not suggesting that you are not already doing that! :)

Lisa

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Re: Hot Buddhist Sex with David Deida

Thanks Lisa

It's interesting isn't it how different types of dialogue appeal to diiferent people.

What I actually  found myself focussing on in the Cohen/ Wilber conversation that you linked to was the theorising about what consituted an “integral” equivalent to the “gravesian” coral stage…. which sounds like blah blah to me, because without examples I have no idea what someone supposedly at coral or the equivalent would think or how they would speak or react in any given circumstance. But you found  this dialogue to be “straight from the horses mouth… no bullshit” :-)

I think I have an unnecessary aversion to what I see as “too much theorising”. This is possibly some “stuff” of mine that I need to look at. Maybe I'm just lazy! Or I have a very low threshold to what the Integral Naked listeners rating sysytem categorises as the “headache factor”. My eyes glaze over pretty quickly when I see a pages full of  Wilberese. Which is a bit of a handicap for someone who's really interested in Integral!

Thanks for the responses.

All The Best

James

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