Zaadz: The Ultimate Challenge, "Defining God/Life"

Re: Did God really give us a free-will???

Fri, 02 May 2008 06:01:44 -0000

when god created the universe 6000 years ago he preordained that most people that have ever lived would be punished in the worst imaginable torment for forever and ever.......

who couldn't love a god like that...........

Re: Did God really give us a free-will???

Fri, 16 May 2008 18:41:44 -0000

Hello Andrew...I take it you are referring to the old testament Jewish god, correct?

And I agree, what a complete idiot the Jewish god would be if he actually existed. The Jewish god is suppose to have the power to stop with the rape and murder of children, yet he does nothing to end that evil. Thank the true God, the Jewish god only exists in the minds of of simple minds.

Humans with small brains believe in small gods with small brains.

What do you think?

Sun, 18 May 2008 18:15:04 -0000

People who believe in multiple gods, have multiple personalities ;>)

Re: What do you think?

Sun, 18 May 2008 18:16:48 -0000

Human-like gods such as the Jewish god, has a plan, and that plan is the joke of jokes!

Re: What do you think?

Sun, 18 May 2008 18:18:42 -0000

Man is certainly stark mad. He cannot even make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by the dozens.

Montaigne

Re: What do you think?

Sun, 18 May 2008 18:19:27 -0000

I do not believe in a God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil.

Albert Einstein

Re: What do you think?

Sun, 18 May 2008 18:20:17 -0000

"Certain teachings in the Bible are as diamonds in a dung-heap".

Thomas Jefferson

Re: What do you think?

Sun, 18 May 2008 18:22:30 -0000

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.

Albert Eistien

Re: What do you think?

Sun, 18 May 2008 18:23:41 -0000

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity.

Albert Einstein

Re: What do you think?

Sun, 18 May 2008 18:24:26 -0000

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.

Albert Einstein

Re: What do you think?

Tue, 20 May 2008 00:06:27 -0000

well, personally, i won't pick on anyone or any one groups misrepresentation of what they think god is....................

were all entitled to our wrong opinion when it comes to belief in the afterlife...speaking for myself, i just think that committing murder in the name of god is pathologically insane.........

more specifically, i don't believe in zionism, christian zionism or radical islam..i think they are equally lethal and deadly world-views.....

if i were to hazard a guess on the nature of god i would have to go with panantheism...........

i hope this helps clarify my stubborn irrational perspective!lol

A must read...Bible Affirms Predeterminism and Denies Free Will

Tue, 27 May 2008 22:27:32 -0000

The Bible Affirms Predeterminism and Denies Free Will
Ephesians
Romans
2nd Letter to Timothy
Misc. Biblical Text
Those Who Are Not Chosen
Predeterminists (Calvin, Luther, etc)
Conclusions

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1. The Bible Affirms Predeterminism and Denies Free Will
If there is a God, then that God has no free will and no-one else has free will. This is true for the existence of any standard monotheistic God, not only the Christian one. The rest of this page is specifically about the Christian God. Not only does the existence of God logically, philosophically and theologically deny the possibility of free will, but the Bible also says and teaches that there is no free will. Examining Exodus, Ecclesiastes 7, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Acts 13, Romans 8, Romans 9, 2 Timothy, 2 Thessalonians and Revelations, we see that God's plan overrides our free will; those that do good do the specific good that God predestined them to do, and all others are ruled by Satan because God sends "powerful delusions" to them. The Christian Bible frequently states that God creates our future and decides our fates, no matter what our own will is. It constantly denies that we have free will. Some of the foremost Christians in history have taught that there is no free will, including St. Augustine (one of the four great founders of Western Christianity [Russell 1946, p335]), Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism) and John Calvin.

2. Ephesians
'Ephesians' in the Christian Bible is a letter written around 61CE or 62CE by an unknown author claiming to be Paul. Some historians believe the author based this letter on the letter of Paul to Colossians. [Roberts, 1990]

"3Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."
Ephesians 1:4-6 [NIV]

It is only through Jesus Christ, say Christians, that Human beings can enter heaven. (Hence why Christianity is called what it is). The verse above says that God has blessed "us" with Christ. The "us" are those who God chose, before creation, to be "holy and blameless". You can only enter heaven if you are blameless, without sin, and to do that you need Jesus. But you only have Jesus if God has chosen you as one of the ones who is blessed with Jesus. It specifically says, next, that God has predetermined particular chosen people to be sons of Jesus. To this lucky people God has "freely given" Jesus. To the others, there is no access to heaven. All of this is chosen, predetermined, before we have had any chance to exercise free will. The cause and affect is not that our free will determines out fate; but that we will act in a way that will save us, if God has chosen us to act that way. It clearly denies free will.

But the Bible is voluminous and confusing sometimes, written by multiple Human beings, and it is odd to argue that something "must be true" from one mere verse. It helps if we have multiple versus behind any Biblical argument. Sometimes when Christians argue amongst themselves it turns into a verse-by-verse punch up!

"4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions - it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Ephesians 2:4-10 [NIV]

Ephesians continues. Versus one to four talk about how particular people once lived in sin, but that 'the spirit' comes to work in particular people to reform them. These people, who become reformed, are those who God has chosen to reform, as we have seen earlier in Ephesians. Here, the author of Ephesians explains that it is not by personal effort that you are saved. It is 'not from yourself' but it is 'the gift of God' that saves people. Specifically, then, God chooses some people and grants them the gift of God, those who are chosen before time, according to God's plan, to conform to Jesus. Those who are chosen by God are automatically destined to 'do good works' which 'God prepared in advance for us to do'. It's not that people choose to do good, and are therefore accepted into Heaven, or even that people choose to do good and therefore come to accept Jesus. The Bible clearly states that God makes specific people do specific 'good works', which God has chosen that certain people will do.

Those who do good works are those who God has predetermined to do good works. There is no free will involved.

3. Romans
Much of the New Testament after the gospels are the letters (epistles) of Paul to various Churches, plus numerous epistles written in the name of Paul, such as Ephesians as we saw above. Romans is written by Paul himself, and is also heavily deterministic.

"28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"
Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

Note the logic here... God has called certain people according to what God wants to get done, and these people love God. God then "works for the good" of these people. It is not that these people have acted well and have then accepted God: People are predestined to be "conformed" to Jesus. These people are predestined to love God. It doesn't matter about their free will or whether they wanted to accept Jesus, or even if they believe in Jesus or not. God "predestined, called, justified and glorified" those who it chose, not those who chose God. Their choice was irrelevant: If God predetermined them to be accepted, then they therefore behave in a way that makes them accepted, conformed to Jesus. In Christianity you only get into Heaven through Jesus, but in Christianity as we have seen, you are only blessed with Jesus, and you only conform to Jesus, if God has chosen you to be.

If your choices determine if you go to Heaven, then the Bible is constantly saying that such choices were chosen by God. Not by you. Specifically, clearly and definitely chosen by God. Your actions are not according to your will, but to God's, "according to his will and pleasure" and "according to his purpose". Not your will or pleasure, not your purpose, and certainly not your choice!

So far we have seen that God has chosen some people to be predestined and predetermined to be blessed with conformity to Jesus' will. What of the others, then, who God has chosen not to conform to Jesus, who God has chosen not to be blameless and holy? Presumably, they go on to make similar choices in life to those who are chosen, but they just don't get it right because God hasn't created them in that way. God has created them to fail.

This raises problems! If God is not just, unfair, what are Christians to do with their own beliefs? How do they make sense of it, if God itself is not the all-loving God that they believe it might claim to be? God is lying, or Christians are deceived! St. Paul saw these problems, too, and all the great Christian dialogues of history include long philosophical debates on the problem of the lack of free will and the resultant amorality of God itself. St Paul touches on such inquiry in Romans 9:

"10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls - she was told "The older will serve the younger". 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" [Exodus 33:19]"

Romans 9:10-15 [NIV]

The answer given as an answer by Paul makes no sense... it doesn't even address the question: Is God just? How can a just God predetermine people to sin, to be hated by God, and predetermine them not to 'conform to Jesus', and then judge those people for that predetermination that was beyond their control? None of these are answered by Paul's quote from the Jewish Scriptures. Thankfully Paul does not leave his attempted discussion there. He goes on to affirm that free will does not affect our fate, and then he asks finally and directly: If our actions and nature are determined by God, how can god blame us for those actions? The Biblical text runs thusly:

"16It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" "

Romans 9:16-19 [NIV]

And that is the clincher; the ultimate question. Paul has asked "Is God unjust?" for its denial of free will, for its disregard for what our choices and intentions are. Paul now has a mortal present that same question. His answer is a shocker:

"20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[Isaiah 29:16, 45:9] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"
Romans 9:20-21 [NIV]

The answer is: Tough! God is unjust, simply because it can be! There is no justification, God makes some people "for noble use", chosen and predestined to do good works 'which God prepared in advance' 'according to his purpose'. If you're not lucky enough to be created for a noble purpose, then you are for common use, relegated to hell and torment, a life without conformity to Christ, and not only is this unjust and painful situation created by God, Paul then says that you have no right to even raise a concern! You can't ask, "Is God Just?" or "How can God still blame us for our actions?", Paul simply states that it doesn't matter, it is tough, God 'hardens who he wants to harden', those who were not noble are waste, space-filler, used, abused... and this unholy mess was all created by God, according to the Bible! No free will is involved, no Human volition can change whether we were made for noble purposes to do pre-planned good acts, or whether we were made for common use, to be discarded and "punished" simply for not having been created right!

It is true that God is not just and unfair: And according to The Bible, God definitely doesn't like being quizzed on this matter! But when pressed to answer, Paul is honest about God's lack of justice. Paul states multiple times, in accordance with the rest of the scripture we see on this page, that free will and personal choices are not the important factor in salvation: Paul then goes further in Romans 9 and admits that God is arbitrary, and it's simply tough that people were created for 'common use' as slaves of Satan, and that only some are created for 'noble purposes'. The God of the Christian bible is amoral... do Christians know that they don't worship a good God? Since the very inception of Christianity, since before the Bible was written, Christians and Humans have been questioning whether the God portrayed is a good God. Paul admits that it isn't a good God, merely a God that has lots of power! A God that owns us and can do as it wants... but not a moral or just God. Such is the God of the Christian Bible.

4. 2nd Letter to Timothy
"The two letters to Timothy and the letter to Titus are known as the "pastoral epistles", being largely concerned with the care and running of the Church. Though traditionally ascribed to Paul, some scholars now believe the letters to have been written some years after Paul's death."
"Bible Facts" by Jenny Roberts

Paul is writing emotionally to Timothy, his close friend. His letter talks of their faith and work. He describes himself as a "prisoner" of God:

"[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, "
2 Timonth 1:9 [NASB]

Once again, it is not their choices that have led to them 'called with a holy calling'. It is God's will that has caused this, irrespective of what 'choices' the person made, or is to make, during their lives. Free will doesn't enter the equation.

5. Misc. Biblical Text
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."
Acts 13:48 [NIV]

Saying "all who were appointed for eternal life believed" only makes sense if, before time, before choices were made, and before humans existed, God knew who it was going to create and save. But God didn't merely know who was going to make the right choices, and therefore be saved, God appointed those who were to believe. Again, this is not a matter of free will, but of God's plan. Those who believed were appointed (made) by God to believe. This ties in with 2 Thessalonians 2:13:

"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."
2 Thessalonians 2:13 [NIV]

Here we see that, again, 'from the beginning' God had chosen who was going to be saved. Adding another circular layer to the mechanism of determination, it also explains that those who were chosen to be saved needed to believe in the truth. So, Acts 13:48 says God predestined certain people to believe, and 2 Thess. 2:13 says that certain people were predestined to be saved, and that they also had to be predistined to believe the truth. There is no way out of the predestinationism of the bible! Free will is irrelevent within its harsh theology.

6. Those Who Are Not Chosen
"All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus]."
Revelations 13:8 [NIV]

"Consider God's handiwork; who can straighten what He hath made crooked?"

Ecclesiastes 7:13 (old testament)

The answer to Ecclesiastes, as we have seen, is that no-one can. God creates people and the world 'crooked'; not due to free will or our choices, but because god has made the good times and the bad times and it has made them "well". There is no changing what god has made crooked, because there is no free will.

Those who worship the Devil, who are not saved, suffer punishment, pain, torment and an eternal life in hell. God, therefore, has created two types of people. Those who conform to Jesus and those who don't. It doesn't matter what your actions in life are, what your choices are, what your purpose or will is: If God has chosen you, then it is predetermined that you will behave in a certain way. The Bible makes it clear. All others are created to be punished. God specifically creates people with personalities that do not, and will not, conform to Christ. It creates specific people who will. Those who are chosen are chosen and act according to God's plan (not their own) and those who are not chosen have no way to be chosen: They cannot be chosen. Only those who are chosen, as we have seen, become 'blameless', 'conform' to Jesus and therefore enter heaven.

"9The work of Satan [...] 10in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."
2 Thessalonians 2:9-13 [NIV]

There are those who are not chosen by God, who God has created to not conform to Jesus, and who God has not chosen before time to become one with Jesus, nor even to understand Jesus. These people cannot accept the truth, because God has not chosen them as ones who will understand it. In addition, to make sure, God sends these 'walking dead' "a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie". We have seen that God selects, in advance, who will perform well and who will not. God selects in advance who will be blessed and God chooses who will choose to conform to Jesus. All of this is God's choice. In addition, those who God does not elect to be saved are condemned, but also have powerful delusions sent to them that make them believe lies. It is God's will that these people are not chosen by God, God's will that they are not blessed with Jesus nor are they 'conformers' to Jesus (because God didn't choose them to be), and in addition it is God's will that they believe lies. The disbelievers and the believers are all, as we have seen multiple times, acting in accordance with the way God wants them to act. Those that do good, God has chosen to do good and even chosen what 'good works' they will do! Those who God has not chosen to be good, God deceives with powerful delusions. No element of free will exists in any of this scheme; it is not personal choice that affects fate, it is only God's will.

In addition to all this arbitrary cruelty and unfair allocation of grace, the author believes that we should thank God for its choice to save some people, and not others. God makes people do good, the Bible says, and then rewards those people: "those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified". And others he punishes. Not because they've done wrong, but because God has chosen them to do wrong. God makes them to wrong, just like it makes the chosen perform specific good works.

The author of Thessalonians says we ought to thank god for this state of affairs: Thank God that many of our friends are made to make bad choices, and thank God for sending powerful delusions to trick those who God has not predestined to save. It seems the author of Thessalonians believes in a deeply immoral god, and has no concept of right or wrong. Does Thessalonians represent the word of a loving God? Is there a loving God, or only an arbitrary, amoral God? Judging by what we have seen so far, God has no concept of justice, morality or mercy: God rewards in full, or punishes in full, and our free will and choices in life can never change what God wants with us.

Apologies if the text on page seems repetitive: But I am only repeating what the Bible says, and The Christian Bible repeatedly denies free will or choice to us.

7. Predeterminists
The history of Christianity is complex and wide. Since the very formation of Christianity, different Christian groups have competed with different ideas, reflecting the fact that converts to Christianity were from Roman, Jewish and Pagan descent. Christianity itself is derived from a mixture of elements of Roman religious myths, Pagan myths and god-men stories, sun worship and gnosticism. From these sources came different initial opinions on free will within Christianity. These issues were debated in the first few centuries and since then, nothing new has been said on the issue. No new opinions have been expressed on the subject in two thousand years. It is an old debate, and one that is in my mind clearly settled by the determinists. Christianity has no room for free will, but for psychological or other reasons, many Christians (perhaps most) have believed in genuine individual free will.

Vexen Crabtree's secular page on Determinism and Free Will - There is No Free Will whether Christianity is true or not
St. Augustine taught that we have no free will
St Augustine is one of the four great founders of Western Christianity [Russel 1946, p335], 'few men have surpassed' him in influence on Christianity. He strongly believed in predestination, and Calvin and Luther both owe a great part of their doctrines to St Augustine.

"[No-one] can, of their own power, abstain from sin. Only God's grace enables men to be virtuous. Since we all inherit Adam's sin, we all deserve eternal damnation. All who die unbaptized, even infants, will go to hell and suffer unending torment. We have no reason to complain of this, since we all wicked. [...] But by God's grace certain people, among those who have been baptized, are chosen to go to heaven; these are the elect. They do not go to heaven because they are good; we are all totally depraved, except in so far as God's grace, which is only bestowed on the elect, enables us to be otherwise. No reason can be given why some are saved and the rest damned; this is due to God's unmotivated choice."
"History of Western Philosophy" by Bertrand Russell, p362

St Augustine believes that "damnation proves God's justice" (because we are all created wicked, and deserve to be punished), but that also "salvation, his mercy", that as God saves some people, after creating them wicked, it is actually a good-gods scheme overall.

Luther and Calvin:

"A leading feature in the teaching of the Reformers of the sixteenth century, especially in the case of Luther and Calvin, was the denial of free will. Picking out from the Scriptures, and particularly from St. Paul, the texts which emphasized the importance and efficacy of grace, the all-ruling providence of God, His decrees of election or predestination, and the feebleness of man, they drew the conclusion that the human will, instead of being master of its own acts, is rigidly predetermined in all its choices throughout life. As a consequence, man is predestined before his birth to eternal punishment or reward in such fashion that he never can have had any real free-power over his own fate. In his controversy with Erasmus, who defended free will, Luther frankly stated that free will is a fiction, a name which covers no reality, for it is not in man's power to think well or ill, since all events occur by necessity. In reply to Erasmus's "De Libero Arbitrio", he published his own work, "De Servo Arbitrio", glorying in emphasizing man's helplessness and slavery. The predestination of all future human acts by God is so interpreted as to shut out any possibility of freedom. An inflexible internal necessity turns man's will whithersoever God preordains. With Calvin, God's preordination is, if possible, even more fatal to free will. Man can perform no sort of good act unless necessitated to it by God's grace which it is impossible for him to resist. It is absurd to speak of the human will "co-operating" with God's grace, for this would imply that man could resist the grace of God. The will of God is the very necessity of things. It is objected that in this case God sometimes imposes impossible commands. Both Calvin and Luther reply that the commands of God show us not what we can do but what we ought to do."
The Catholic Encyclopedia

Christian theology in this sense is quite abhorrent: The Christian God is a monster, imposing its hellish will upon Human Beings who have no choice but to suffer.

8. Conclusion
Comprehensively we have shown that The Christian Bible denies free will and any element of choice in what good works we do. God has picked who will do what good deeds, and God also punishes and rewards people on account of what God has chosen, in accordance with God's plan and purpose. This is all very unfair, immoral by any standards, and evil. If the Christian God exists, it is evil. A good god would simply choose everyone to conform to Jesus, to be blessed, to be 'blameless'. This must only amplify the grief of those who are not chosen! The scheme of God, according to the Bible, has nothing to do with free will. It has everything to do with God exercising power, with no concern for morality or free will.

God is Evil or Amoral
or
Much of The Bible is Not the Word of God
What a breathe of fresh air it would be to then revert to pagan beliefs in free will! Socrates, four hundred years before Christianity was even born, thought up a much more moral way for the universe to run: "the good go to heaven, the bad to hell, the intermediate to purgatory" [Russell 1946, p155]. It is so much more moral that those who behave well go to heaven, than the Christian doctrines of baptism, original sin and predestination. It is no wonder that such pagan ideas found themselves accepted by most Christians. It's just lucky that they don't know they're pagan in origin!

Unfortunately, any doctrine that holds that a good God created free will as a method of choosing who goes to heaven and who doesn't, is illogical and wrong:

Pages on Heaven and Free WillBibliography:

Roberts, Jenny
"Bible Facts" (1997 hardback). Originally 1990. Published by Grange Books, London.

Russell, Bertrand
"History of Western Philosophy" (1946). Quotes from 2000 edition published by Routledge, London, UK.

Notes:

2005: The original text of this page was written in 1999, but it is now completely rewritten.
2006 Jul 10: Added quotes from Bertrand Russell

Re: Did God really give us a free-will???

Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:59:22 -0000

i always wondered why its referred to as free will why not simply ask if we have and will at all i dont get the difference between will and free will neverltheless i will answer the question does man have any will at all or is he simply a puppet in the hands of god or does the answer lie somewhere in between firstly it is clear that a man has some will of one sort or another for instance he can choose or decide to bite into an apple and then he can actually do so at least in some cases now lets take a case where a man decides on some course of action yet fails in his attempt to carry out this action successfully this would indicate a lack of will some men have weak wills some have strong ones but all men have some will yet no one has perfect will god gave us the will we have like all the things he has given the humans this will is imperfect only the will of god himself is a perfect one heres how it plays out gods perfect will has granted the humans a makeshift imperfect will with his will man can do everything a man needs to do but he can never do what goes against the perfect will of god the perfect will of god is never thwarted everything falls under the umbrella of gods perfect will and this everything includes the human ability to set goals and carry them out but the lord giveth and the lord taketh away there are times when the lord vetoes a mans will but a man can never veto the will of the lord much love to all

Re: What do you think?

Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:20:34 -0000

i think god is the universe has anyone ever asked you do you believe in the universe let me ask it do you believe the universe exists if so can you prove it ask not whether god exists ask whether you exist everyone takes their own self for granted they just assume their own existence i question this blind faith can you prove that you exist you demand proof that god exists so why shouldnt he demand the proof of your reality but everyone just assumes the existence of their own self the question never even comes up rednecks negros fat people stoners gays politicians etc they all agree on this one point as does everyone else they all believe that they exist so why dont we found a religion on the one thing that everybody to a man agrees upon such a religion would be all inclusive no one would be an outsider no one would be a nonbeliever such a religion would be based on unity rather than discrimination everybody has multiple personalities otherwise they would be satisfied with this one self and this one universal self would be called god or love and this is what will happen in our future sooner or later much love to all

Re: Did God really give us a free-will???

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 03:58:50 -0000

just to be clear: we have no free will because of two people who never existed who got hoodwinked by a talking serpent/snake who we are admonished to be as wise as......

should i say more?

i'm happy your still in fine form rashthawani...........

okay,okay, i have thought about this thru the years and have come up with a somewhat rational hypothesis to this seeming idiocy. here goes: prior to this universe, we all lived in another universe and we all made decisions there that pretty well dictated what we would do here in this universe.......

i know, i know, i have too much time on my hands..............

Re: Did God really give us a free-will???

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:40:34 -0000

In reply to rashthawani ...

It appears you are an individual who believes in an anthropromorpic male god with a penis. A human like god who thinks with the wrong head ;>) A god who has the power to stop with the evil rape and murder of children, but absolutely refuses to do so. A god that one hand you claim to be all loving, yet on the other hand is obviously one sick satanic puppy.

There is enormous scientific evidence that free will is the grandest illusion in the Universe. You obviously know nothing about Albert Einstein calculations.

Bottom line, it all comes down to how one defines their god. You apparently believe in one of those god's who must plan and think things. Therefore you do not believe in a god that is completely all-knowing. A God such as the Universe, which contains all knowledge, plans or thinks nothing. One cannot plan or think something one has always known. The Universe/God is far beyond being human-like.

If I am a puppet of God/Universe, great! I have no problem with that. You seem to think there would be a problem being a puppet of your god, and it's easy to understand why. You don't even trust your own god to do the right thing, and for good reason ;>)

rashthawani previous post...

i always wondered why its referred to as free will

why not simply ask if we have and will at all

i dont get the difference between will and free will

neverltheless i will answer the question
does man have any will at all
or is he simply a puppet in the hands of god
or does the answer lie somewhere in between

firstly it is clear that a man has some will
of one sort or another

for instance he can choose or decide to bite into an apple
and then he can actually do so at least in some cases

now lets take a case where a man decides on some course of action
yet fails in his attempt to carry out this action successfully

this would indicate a lack of will

some men have weak wills some have strong ones

but all men have some will
yet no one has perfect will

god gave us the will we have

like all the things he has given the humans
this will is imperfect

only the will of god himself is a perfect one

heres how it plays out

gods perfect will has granted the humans a makeshift imperfect will

with his will man can do everything a man needs to do

but he can never do what goes against the perfect will of god

the perfect will of god is never thwarted

everything falls under the umbrella of gods perfect will

and this everything includes the human ability
to set goals and carry them out

but the lord giveth and the lord taketh away

there are times when the lord vetoes a mans will
but a man can never veto the will of the lord

much love to all

Re: What do you think?

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:56:58 -0000

rashthawani states "do you believe the universe exists
if so can you prove it ?"

Wow, what we have here is a god dam comedian, too funny ;>)

We'll, let me prove to you the Universe exists. You are proof positive that the Universe created people simply for the sole purpose of being nothing more than fertilizer for Nature. A person so under the influence of psychopathic medications, he actually believes in a human-like god of love, which allows the rape and murder of children. Let me guess, you vote straight Republican/Nazi party don't you ;>) Thinking you are the type of person who sings himself to sleep with the song, "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran." ;>)

rashthawani previous post...

i think god is the universe

has anyone ever asked you
do you believe in the universe

let me ask it

do you believe the universe exists

if so can you prove it

ask not whether god exists
ask whether you exist

everyone takes their own self for granted
they just assume their own existence

i question this blind faith

can you prove that you exist

you demand proof that god exists
so why shouldnt he demand the proof of your reality

but everyone just assumes the existence of their own self

the question never even comes up

rednecks negros fat people stoners gays politicians etc
they all agree on this one point as does everyone else

they all believe that they exist

so why dont we found a religion
on the one thing that everybody to a man agrees upon

such a religion would be all inclusive
no one would be an outsider
no one would be a nonbeliever

such a religion would be based on unity rather than discrimination

everybody has multiple personalities
otherwise they would be satisfied with this one self
and this one universal self would be called god or love

and this is what will happen in our future sooner or later

much love to all

Re: Jesus? Man or a God?

Mon, 06 Oct 2008 02:20:43 -0000

Jesus is God - as we all are. To understand this statement you have to have the "eyes to see". In the bible in Luke 17:21 Jesus said: "Neither shall they say, Lo here or, lo there! For, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you." He also did not say it was within himself only. He said it was "within you" - meaning All of us.

And, what is this Kingdom of God within us? Where is it? To discover and find this Kingdom within ourselves is to find the pearl of great price that Jesus spoke of.

To begin our search we must first realize that our search is to look within ourselves and that this excludes all external searches. We will not find the Kingdom of God outside of ourselves.

Next we need to narrow the search within ourselves. Who are we? Are we our physical bodies, our emotions, our egos, our thoughts?

God is omnipresent - meaning his presence is everywhere and every when. Do you believe that God's presence is everywhere except where you are? You are limiting your experience of God if you do. If you can begin to accept the possibility that God's presence is right where you are then you are getting closer to the Kingdom?

As long as we believe ourselves to have an existence separate from God we still have not found the Kingdom. If you still believe yourself to be your physical body, your emotions, your ego, or your thoughts you are outside the Kingdom because the essence of who you are is none of these.

To become aware of yourself as you are beyond thought it is necessary to transcend thought itself because thought is finite and cannot comprehend the infinite.

This is where meditation comes into play.

My personal search for myself and the "Kingdom" has lead me to discover that we are pure self-conscious awareness beyond thought. We are pure consciousness - pure conscious awareness. As such, we are perfectly flawless like the most perfect jewel in the universe - which we are. This is the pearl of great price.

This consciousness we are is our true identity and it is NOT separate from the very presence of God - from the consciousness of God! We are forever one with God and where His presence is - is the Kingdom! I AM THAT I AM. We are I AM. We are pure BEING.

This is the teaching Jesus was trying to teach, but unfortunately the masses then weren't ready for it and the masses today aren't ready either. Perhaps you can join the very few on this planet who have awakened to their true identity?

Re: Jesus? Man or a God?

Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:42:33 -0000

Peace, I'm a Muslim, that is one who submits to God, without associating any partners with Him. We believe...

(translation:) 112:1-4; He is God, the One! God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten, and there is none comparable unto Him

- that God is One, and there is no diety except God. Regarding Jesus (peace be upon him) he was a messenger of God, he did many miracles given to him by God, Jesus was miraculously born with no human father, for God can do all anything He wills. We believe there is nothing like God, He is One.
- If God was a man than there is something like Him, there is nothing like God, He is One.

I'll reference some verses from the Bible to show you that your book still has some of these concepts there even though they contradict with the present-day common beliefs associated with mainstream Christainity as well as other highly publized Biblical verses...

"Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me."
Isaiah 46:9
Luke: 19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good - except God alone."
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Acts 21
22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
John 5
30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Quran translation:
5.72 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " God is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with God - God has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
5.73 They have certainly disbelieved who say, "God is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.
5.74 So will they not repent to God and seek His forgiveness? And God is Forgiving and Merciful.

3:64 Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except God and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of God ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are submitters[to God]."
3:79 It is not for a human that God should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than God," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."

with peace and respect to my christian cousins

Re: Jesus? Man or a God?

Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:45:44 -0000

JESUS WAS NOT GOD according to the bible:

Luke: 19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good - except God alone."

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Acts 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

John 13
16 I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 5
30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

"Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me."
Isaiah 46:9
God is One, Unique, if God was fully man than there is something like Him, which goes against this verse.

Jesus and God are different and Jesus was not God.

God knows everything
"He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power his understanding has no limit."
Psalm 147:4-5
God does not sleep
"He(God) will not let your foot slip- he who watches over you will not slumber; indeed, he who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep.
Psalm 121:3-4

Jesus slept according to the Bible...
(Matthew 8:23-27) "Without warning, a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping."
(Mark 4:35-41)
A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?"

Jesus did not know everything according to the Bible..
Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
"I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (John 20:17).

Acts 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

Mathew 7: 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

1 Timothy 613In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which God will bring about in his own time-God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of Lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Mark 12:
28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

Mathew 4

10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

Isaiah 45

21 Declare what is to be, present it-
       let them take counsel together.
       Who foretold this long ago,
       who declared it from the distant past?
       Was it not I, the LORD ?
       And there is no God apart from me,
       a righteous God and a Savior;
       there is none but me.

22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.