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  Erick : Contemplative Dao Follower
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The Happiness of Fish

Erick said Aug 23, 2007, 1:42 AM:
 

At the time Zhuangzi lives people liked to debate about something, here is a nice example, when you can find more, please post them for others to read.

Translation by Burton Watson:

Zhuangzi and Huizi were strolling along the dam of the Hao Waterfall when Zhuangzi said, “See how the minnows come out and dart around where they please!
 That's what fish really enjoy!”
Huizi said, “You're not a fish - how do you know what fish enjoy?”
Zhuangzi said, “You're not I, so how do you know I don't know what fish enjoy?”
Huizi said, “I'm not you, so I certainly don't know what you know.
On the other hand, you're certainly not a fish-
so that still proves you don't know what fish enjoy!”
Zhuangzi said, “Let's go back to your original question, please.
 You asked me how I know what fish enjoy -
so you already knew I knew it when you asked the question.
 I know it by standing here beside the Hao.”
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Re: The Happiness of Fish

Dave [no longer around] said Aug 23, 2007, 1:51 AM:
 
Fantastic!

What do you think of Huizi's statement, Erick?  Do you feel that it is possible to know what a fish enjoys?
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  Erick : Contemplative Dao Follower
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Re: The Happiness of Fish

Erick said Aug 23, 2007, 2:05 AM:
 

We cannot know what fish like, they also do not know what we like.
The end of discussion is funny, because Zhuangzi knows that Huizi knows it already.

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Re: The Happiness of Fish

Dave [no longer around] said Aug 23, 2007, 2:06 AM:
 
Of course it is!  But as a philosopher, I thought it interesting to hear your thoughts on the fish itself. 

Each to their own.
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Re: The Happiness of Fish

Tuan [no longer around] said Aug 23, 2007, 9:17 AM:
 

In Vietnam we often refer a round and round argument is “Fish Story”. I didn't know what it means up until now. Thanks for the “Fish Story” Erick.

Under my view of this story, it is represent a Yin Yang symbol. A white dot inside of Yin and a black dot inside of Yang. Yin has little Yang in it, and Yang has little Yin in it. It is the balance of the universe and so does the argument.

If we can only see a Yin side or a Yang side, the argument go round and round and no end. If we accept a little of each side of the argument, it will be a perfect argument, like the end of the story.

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  Erick : Contemplative Dao Follower
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Re: The Happiness of Fish

Erick said Mar 9, 1:33 AM:
 

Zhuangzi and Huishi were friends,they urualy argued,for many things .

They argued then compromised,compromise then argued.


One day.they meet on the bridge. they watched the fish in the water.


Zhuangzi said:”how happy the fishes are!”

Huishi opposed:”you are not the fish,how you know the fishes's happiness!'

Zhuangzi argued:”you are not me,how you know that I don't know the fishes's happiness!haha”

Huishi said flinty:'yes,I am not you,so I don't know what you feel,the same principle,you are not the fishes,you don't know what they feel!”

Zhuangzi smiled,and said:”let us back to the first question,when you asked me how I know what the fishes's happiness,you had knew surely that I feel their happiesness,because we know each other,so you can know me.but why I can't know the fishes? I can tell you now ,I felt the fishes's happiness on this bridge!”

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