Don't know how to copy and paste the long posts here from the previous board. To save time posting the link here. So some of the questions raised there can be addressed here. Well done…the copy paste worked below!!!
This subpod This subpod What the Bleep Do We Know about Moneyis inspired by the movie What the Bleep do we know and the Desire What Else Is Possible NOW for us on this emerald planet here to Co-create consciously ;-)
Since money or currency is a man-made tool and money is the life-blood of economy, society, and community and touches all human endeavors…is it possible to design and Concsiously Co-create a tool or currency that opens up a universe of unlimited possilities?
Money that serves the whole pursuit of LIFE, LIBERTY & Happiness and not just survival with inequality and insecurity? This Pod is for fearless open-minded exploration of this very exciting and awesome possibility.
Alex and I welcome you to be part of something big, bold, inspiring and beautiful here.
Since money or currency is a man-made tool and money is the life-blood of economy, society, and community and touches all human endeavors…is it possible to design and Concsiously Co-create a tool or currency that opens up a universe of unlimited possilities?
Imagine Currency that serves the whole pursuit of LIFE, LIBERTY & Happiness and not just survival with inequality, war and insecurity?
This Pod is for fearless open-minded exploration of this very exciting and awesome possibility that open-minded Citizens everywhere can participate and contribute!!!!
We like everyone to keep postings simple, radical (pertaining to root) and brilliant here, so we all can be part of an integral holistic solution of a new kind of sustainable money that fosters unimaginable creativity, co-operation, enterprise and entrepreneurism both locally and globally.
So folks imagine and dream big and small simultaneously, ask deep questions, stay inspired. Think for yourself and think deep, make choices based on mindful contemplations. Quality of life is determined by quality of questions asked and pursued.
I am posting a few topic to get the ball rolling in the right direction. Alex and I welcome you to be part of something big, bold, imaginative and beautiful here.
I find it a real life positive that I try to spend my money on things that I consider good things. By this I mean fair trade, locally naturally made or organically grown things, although sometimes it can be difficult to source them.
I wonder what the long term repercussion would be if the western buying trends shifted this way? (For countries that are used to our trade too.)
I think it's wonderful how the market is opening up for ethical investments, good sustainable living and natural products and almost everyone has the money to chose (in England and Australia anyway.) Also even on a low wage we can afford to support charities like Vision and Save the Children.
The freedom to do good and loving things with all of our power- time, money and energy- that is real freedom!
Thankyou Happiness for your conscious thinking and choices about how we can spend money to support local economy and fair trade. Even our small donations to non-profit with vision that inspire us can make our world a better place.
I like to engage people about a broader vision of money (see next thread to watch video) that is empowering and that does not create huge debt-burden on people, national governments and businesses.
Have you ever thought about 'money' itself and not just how to use 'money'? Or about poverty and inequality in our world. Or any other questions regarding money????
Yes! Vote with your dollar! I always thought that Money was the root of all evil, But that's just because of the power it gives is usually used negatively to gain more power.
But think if we use that power positvely to spread more positivity. We are in a capitalist corporate society, but now there are companies that are based on Good personal Values, and Triple bottom line, which includes the earth's welfare. and they need our support.
I am lately coming to an acceptance, that the world I live in involves making money and spending money, so If I must do these things I can choose to make money with work that reflects my values, and spend my money that way too!
Angelika~ Many years ago I wrote a poem about the Power of Money.
The Power of Money by Rosemarie E. Bishop
I deserve the power of money; the power to share, the power to teach, the power to give, the power to reach.
I deserve the power of money, the power to do what's good, to forgive with generosity in heaven's neighborhood.
I deserve the power of money to do all that is right, to show the truest way to live and bring others into the light.
It wasn't until many years later that I began to understand what these words meant. Many of my friends have printed the poem and have it on their refrigerators to remind them that money is a good thing when it's used for goodness, but when it was written I truly did not understand why it was so important to write. Since then I have learned and I embrace the concept of the positive energy large amounts of money can spread across the planet. In love & light…. Ro
Thank you for your beautiful poem. I notice when I get depressed about money- not having enough to live comfortably, I push it further away by cursing it and the whole system. I like the line about deserving the power of money. I need to learn to welcome it into my life, so that I can live in that abundance as well as all the other abundances I have (Friends, Family,Love, A great place to live, Love) because I need to eat and eat WELL! Organic foods and the superfoods I like cost a pretty penny right now! And I must believe I deserve it, because I know how to spend it on this societies positive change!
Thank you for starting this zPod, I am ready to engage in developing a new pattern for holistic whole worldly and inclusive current of money for all
Let us try another approach to money; a kind that i never really considered and I am about to start from the most basic stand that I can find about money. What I know of money is that just like Nationalism and Religion, money is divisive and reason for bad struggles and wars.
We can fairly say that money is most common reason for conflicts not only between nations but also inside the family; it is I think today the major cause for violence in the family.
Money is also one of the main if not the leading cause for people inner struggle as money is the preferred alternative of most to prove their true value, talents and achievement.
I know that most people of today and for many generations we have spent our best prayer time to asking for much more money and it is a fact that people invest more money in lottery as well as illegal activity such as stealing and scamming; and much more are quiet conceivable ways to become of wealth.
Yet, all day we are exposed to the complex money markets where unimaginable sums of money are changing hands; we know about the world resources worth and how nations invade and control the natural resources of fellow nations regardless of the many victims of wars.
And with it we are exposed to different levels and kinds of propaganda or explanations along those very massive world money activities.
So we are drawn to feel that there is a currency in which some participate and the rest, us, the majority are kept out miserably praying and struggling and ready to kill whoever deems to stand in our way, including our dear family members in order to perhaps have money.
So we are well ready to learn any old or new trick including progressing human evolution and enlightenment why not – if we could make a lot more money.
So this is about where we are on this zPod aren’t we (?)
In other words, after having exhausted many different ways we are yet ready for the ‘what the bleep do we know’ way – andwhy not, really
Still the enormous weight of trying and the so many praying and the bitter struggle and the smell of sweat and blood that accompanies this money, just like the neat air-conditioned Bank Lobbies with those fast counting machines and clerks who mind our money less than a reckless casino player would.
Into this kind of devastating money moving image most of us are afraid to come close, even if you say; listen – we could build another world pattern with handling money and get all of us off this weird worldly attitude where we are pushed far off side the real currency main roads and stay poor and frustrated
I absolutely applaud and support your motives but as you responded to my own comment to your Getting Radical blog post the design itself is faulty.
That being the case - changing the design requires a completely new approach at, global level, before we can even start thinking of Colin Mason's optimal future history objectives in respect to the trouble with money.
The new approach will NOT necessarily be lead by the USA. My dialogue with Albert Klampt in the Spiral Dynamics and Europe zPod thread has touched on an alternative approach in the context of the European Dream viz the American Dream.
I believe that the way that the European zone of influence is already beginning to encompass countrys such as India & China - may provide the model of the way forward to start realistically addressing the core money issue.
Thankyou Yosyama for touching on how we intuitively feel and experience money in our daily reality. Getting in touch with this feeling is important so Evolutionary Wisdom can emerge out of the realization of emptiness of money.
Money has become the measure of all things including the worth of human life and human labor. We have come to count and know the price of everything but the value of nothing.
You wrote: ”I know of money is that just like Nationalism and Religion, money is divisive and reason for bad struggles and wars.”
Could money power be the source of corruption behind both the institution of Religion and Government? and Corporations?
As you pointed out money is the leading cause of conflict and war within family, community and nations. War between nations has become most devasting and is continuing unabated after World Wars I & II, popularized as the war to end all wars.
My interest in the question of money was aroused because I have grown up seeing unimaginable poverty in the slums of calcutta and I also saw the excess and waste in affluent nations. And I never could figure out why such excessive money (trillions) flows to the war machinery and defense budgets until I read this revealing article War is a Racket in 1997. One must wonder where does the financing for bloody War (including civil war), Revolution, Riot, Terrorism comes from?
Yo rightly mention enormous money (trillions) flowing through financial and currency markets of all kinds.
“Your money's value is determined by a global casino of unprecedented proportions: $2 trillion are traded per day in foreign exchange markets, 100 times more than the trading volume of all the stockmarkets of the world combined. Only 2% of these foreign exchange transactions relate to the “real” economy reflecting movements of real goods and services in the world, and 98% are purely speculative. This global casino is triggering the foreign exchange crises which shook Mexico in 1994-5, Asia in 1997 and Russia in 1998. These emergencies are the dislocation symptoms of the old Industrial Age money system.” - Future of Money by Bernard Lietaer (former central banker and developer of euro)
I don't want to go to solution without engaging us in understanding the problem from all sides.
Beacuse it is a deep issue that permeates every facet of life and human endeavors. So visitors please wonder and keep asking questions about why we humans do not understand something that is created by us - ( in this case money/ monetary system). Or did we create it?
The answer comes from the questions.
In your own life situation job or profession how money affects your choices and decision-making….be it non-profit, service, production, research, health care, business, career whatever.
Global situations like poverty, hunger, war we feel we can do nothing, when in fact We CAN… first accepting the situation or reality, then believing there must be something each of us can do…wondering..questioning staus quo.
I agree with Angelika's post earlier: Yes! Vote with your dollar! I always thought that Money was the root of all evil, But that's just because of the power it gives is usually used negatively to gain more power.
But think if we use that power positvely to spread more positivity. We are in a capitalist corporate society, but now there are companies that are based on Good personal Values, and Triple bottom line, which includes the earth's welfare. and they need our support.
I am lately coming to an acceptance, that the world I live in involves making money and spending money, so If I must do these things I can choose to make money with work that reflects my values, and spend my money that way too!
We get what we focus on.
If we want to have a united and open world we need a medium of exchange in order to share our work/time/goods.
That is the only purpose of money and deserves no more attention than we give to something like brushing our teeth.
We develop a habit of brushing our teeth because it is the right thing to do to take care of our teeth. Once it's a habit it really doesn't require our focused attention.
Develop the habit of paying attention where you spend your money-time (where do you work) and where you spend your money and focus your attention on what you want to manifest…Love…Joy… The soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts. Marcus Aurelius
In another post, I wrote: I have read some of your links, Susmita, and I agree with you. I have thought about returning to do a doctorate with a thesis around theories of value, and I empathize with your point of view. The question, of course, is how do you initiate this type of paradigm shift. The powers that control fiat money aren't just going to quit because we call them out. An organized strategy, which would probably involve armed resistance, would be required to bring about the changes you describe. Are you willing to go there? Do you think I overstate the case? If so, where would one begin to develop a monetary system based on human capital and not debt? Will this system bring prosperity to the billions?
And you responded: Rick Thank You for your thoughts. The time has come for humanity to face the reality and make choices from vastly expanded holistic perspective. I invite you and others to be part of that fearless exploration and solution. The only evil is ignorance and Knowledge dispels any fear. We need to be prepared with knowledge before the house of cards collapses or purposely collapsed. Our unconsciousness, coupled with so much misinformation and distortion of history is causing so much misdirected action and turmoil that one needs to go silent and ponder the implication. I do not see any armed resistance when the intelligent middle class becomes aware of the issues. But the knowledge gap seems to be huge, but its changing fast. Because this existing debt-money creating debt-slavery of people, government and businesses. It is not a fair game even for Corporations like Wal-mart , who are trying to survive and stay afloat by bucking the system.
This is a matter of competing realities. We actually aren't the first people to understand that “reality” isn't created from matter but from thoughts. “Money” began as a simple tool - a medium of exchange, a way to trade equitably, but quickly became a complex tool in the hands of people seeking power. They, from their “holistic perspective”, beat you to the spot. They defined what money is, and they did so effectively. Most people who truly understand how banks create money through interest do not share the abhorrence for the system that you (and to extent I) express - they see it as a useful technology which has helped create western civilization (the “incentives” economy).
Governments and corporations aren't debt slaves - they are profiteers who are enriched daily by the present system. Walmart is hardly the victim of an unfair game; they are the winners in a zero-sum mentality the goal of which is to keep individuals in the role of serfs. Machiavelli - like Lao Tsu - said if you want to keep the cattle contained, build bigger fences.
The warriors of the right love it when the left disappears to contemplate its collective navel. They will tell you in a heartbeat that they are the doers, and we are the thinkers. They will create the history that we “interpret”. So far, this has been true. Ted Turner once said that if you redistribute all the world's wealth so that everyone has an equal share, he would be a billionaire again in a couple months. These types aren't going to go away, no matter how much silent contemplation we perform.
Nor is the game mathematically unsustainable. It would be if the rules weren't malleable, but the people who own the game also own the rules (read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man for an understanding of how the “rules” “work”). The game of economics is designed to keep wealth in the hands of a relative few. They have consolidated their power over several centuries, and they won't just go away. They have the ability to create realities right alongside any we create.
Michael is on the right path, I believe. We start by making changes to the rules where we can; for instance, replacing GAAP accounting with an accounting that more truly measures costs and gains. Redirecting wealth to the poorest, by any means possible. Holding individuals accountable for their corporate actions (eliminate the fiction of the corporate entity, at least as a legal protection). Eliminating taxation, which serves only to enrich those who crave power. Then, we build local economies, based on simple, effective technologies that don't require global corporations to construct.
This is an all-night discussion, and I want to hear from others, so I am stepping down from the soapbox for the minute…
thank you Rick for this quote, it certainly cleared enough of the issue so i can say now i understand some of Susmita’s insight. And Thank you Susmita
is there any further step or it is a quantum script?
Or do you say it is enough; by educating the billions so that they know how corrupt the use of money in the hands of few has become, don't you think that at some point every one of them billions knows it already in his heart and spirit with or without education…..
Or you choose to say that we must keep our attention on this matter at such higher level and pace that we elevate our vigor much further but we must develop new means of communicating this to the billions and especially now that we have such great tool as the Internet.
So that there is a certain huge intellectual & communication effort needed, a new association created perhaps with its soul objective to engage in a global war and break down the tyranny of corrupt wealthy systems and individuals.
Could you be more helpful and tell us if there are already any new lines of activity developed that we must know about and could join
I really feel very encouraged now by all your thoughtful posts. To answer Dragon Dancer (love that name) and Angelika, I am all for conscious creators, entrpreneurs and conscious businesses bringing new and ethical values in doing business in as much win-win way for all parties as posible. They are restoring the soul of money in a monetary-system that is heartless.
And yes the design is faulty and mathematically unsustainable [both fractional reserve and usury or compound interest on privately issued debt-money creating problems of exponentially growing unrepayable debt and gambling with life]. No government is not getting richer, the US land, property is being owned by foreign investors daily.
See how scarcity and debt-slavery maintained with appearence of prosperity! Right now our priorities and future is in the hands of greedy and often short-sighted investment bankers and venture capitalists.
Money is created when banks lend it into existence When a bank provides you with a $100,000 mortgage, it creates only the principal, which you spend and which then circulates in the economy. The bank expects you to pay back $200,000 over the next 20 years, but it doesn't create the second $100,000 - the interest. Instead, the bank sends you out into the tough world to battle against everybody else to bring back the second $100,000.”- Bernard Lietaer,
Here my post in Dropping knowledge site in response to Arundhati Roy's Blog on Acceptable Forms of Protest seems to have received approval.
Government is not free, since power to isssue money rests privately with centralized commercial banking, which produces unlimited debt-burden on people, government and businesses, but unlimited profit due to usury (charging compound interest on fiat-money with no inherent value)
It is the elite bankers who are financing war-military-intelligenge-prison-media-think tank complex and corporate greed to keep shareholders profit and people poor, confused and divided. Most bankers like most people and intelligentia is not aware of this.
My article links on Transforming capitalism can also be found in my profile. Give me your honest feedback. It took me several years for the basics to sink in and there are still aspects i haven't thought about.
Money is not evil, nor is it good. It is just energy. Before there was money, there was barter: you give me your pen for my fork, that sort of thing. Or perhaps, I help you get in your crops and your help get in mine. But this became a bit too cumbersome, to find someone who had exactly what you wanted and wanted exactly what you had. So we all agreed to trade these things for symbols of these other prodcucts or work, i.e. energy.
So the problem with money is NOT the money, it’s how people use it. If you want to do good with your money, you will. If you don’t care what kind of earth we live on, then you’ll be reckless with your money. If you are the sort of person who exploits others, then you will use money to take advantage of people. Period.
I’ve heard it said that the true culprit in the money system is interest. That this encourages people to hoard rather than spend, thus keeping energy out of the system. That is worth a discussion…
So, if Money is energy, why is it you think, that you are wasting so much energy? And why is it, that someone in ,For instance, Europe can live just as good or even better, while using less money? Money is an indication of materialistic strength. Though yes, Matter is energy, it isn't in the way our minds express it. I disagree when you say Money is energy. Money is materialistic power. And that power is nothing without control. Even very little money can be put to much better use, then a lot of money could by an ignorant person. No I don't think Money can be compared with energy. For the mutual reason, that energy doesn't devaluate. While money can, up to catastrophical magnitudes.
Besides comparing Money with Energy, makes me say you have a very wrong image of the things that power or control your life. Something which seems so bad, I do not even wish to coninue it in public.
As I said before; Monet is materialistic power. Not energy. For instance with debt, you give a person money (power) and if they do not know how to use that power, they will suffer from the conscequences for years to come. Power is nothing without control! (Parkour principle) I mean, if it were energy, how come people who work very hard, for days on end, but only get paid very little? They then haven't earned an amount respectivelly to the amount of work they gave. As you might reply that that work did perhaps not require large intellect, is still say the same. It doesn't really matter how much energy you get out of it. Judging by for instance the amount of money you have to put into a good education, I think only in the end (after death, with an equal lifespan) you can somewhat approach money with energy, and it would still be unfairly distributed. When I'm done with my study I can make 350 euro's per hour, for little, very little work indeed, and It is not like I'm putting excessive energies into getting there either.
I think Cheryl has a good point about celebrating and focusing on what is going well and working rather than constantly taking up against what is wrong and trying to change it. As the Mahatma said let's be the change we want to see.
So we know that there are some serious problems with money on many levels: its creation, its functioning, its circulation, its hoarding, its cost etc. But we also know that it works for many people on many levels also. Its a simple medium of exchange and easy to use.
But we also have many examples of local currencies working in local communities. Maybe we should focus on those and use them as a positive model to say this looks like a great idea which could work here and be really positive.
Instead of saying this system is wrong let's change it. If we be the change the change will come.
The LOA works a bit like this. When you are in campaiging mode you attract others like that but it becomes a big fight. A few years ago i invested and became a director of an environmental based company where the founder was a guy who had fought against the status quo for many years and been shafted by those “in control”. I sympathised with him and agreed and in a way bought into his vision which wasnt really me at all. The company attitude was therefore predicated on a “they're wrong, we're right” approach. Needless to say the founder ended up fighting with me and the business went downhil lfrom there. It was a really hard lesson for me to learn but ultimately a rewarding one.
It's changed the way i approach things and to remove the word “wrong” from my lexicon. Maybe “this could help”, “maybe this can be of service” or “this may work better”.
So in all aspects of change we can be aware of this. So for me it could be:
- If the government creates all money interest free we may be able to save $3bln a year which could be used to boost our childcare, education and health services” or something similar.
rather than:
- the money system is run by the banks for their own profit and is systematically destroying society and the environment.
”- If the government creates all money interest free we may be able to save $3bln a year which could be used to boost our childcare, education and health services” or something similar.”
— sorry Raf it took me this long to come back and respond.
First Govt. would not do anything without people's awareness and pressure to change the system. This is not just US, in every country where fractional reserve based centralized banking exists.
Creating money interest free means changing the notion/perception definition of 'MONEY AS DEBT”, stopping fractional reserve banking and usury - the three evils of present monetary system.
So Banking and other related financial institutions must stop doing business as usual (creating money out of thin air and charging usury on them), and all form of speculation with money, including massive speculation with foreign currency and its detrimental effect on global/national trade and employment would also change for the betterment of socio-economic reality of the majority.
So what we hope to accomplish here is to share knowledge and information as broadly as we can. And new systems would arise spontaneously to meet the need in our lifetime, so at least we keep working for next generation, hopefully sooner.
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Transforming the "Capital" in Capitalism ~ Change The System
> What the Bleep Do We Know About Money...Continued
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