Zaadz: Transforming the "Capital" in Capitalism ~ Change The System - Explore Key Ideas, Give Comments on Article "Transforming Money" here

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:01:42 -0000

The power to create new money via interest bearing loans resides with the private banking system. This means they are in control of who can access money.

Complimentary currenices return this power to the local level where the currency is focused on community objectives.

This is an important distinction. The interest component is an unnecessary charge and is in effect a huge transfer of wealth from the state to the private sector. If you want to understand why 1% of the population holds 50% of the wealth then this is where you should look.

See www.monetary.org for further information.

peace

Raf

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:21:48 -0000

This is a good question. Until now monetarist theory has looked to control the physical money supply (M3 or similar) but has done it using monetary policy ie raising or lowering interest rates.

This experiment didn't work and eventually monetarism was consigned to the dustbin and a general inflation number was used.

The original idea was correct but the tool to use it wasn't. Interest rates are a very blunt tool and merely change the price of borrowing rather than limit change supply or demand. Of course it does have an impact just not a very precise one. Also with the expansion of capital markets the short term interest rate is not as influential as it once was with investors able to access the yield curve out to 30 years.

I just completed some research here in NZ: since 1988 the increase in the money supply has been 326%; the increase in house prices has been 393% and the CPI has increased only 54%.

Something is clearly out of whack here.

CPI is not measuring the impact of house prices in the economy and the banks are expanding the money supply on demand.

This is not a healthy situation since wages are not rising and therefore debt is increasing.

To answer the question of how to control the money supply.

Like anything you want to control, first you have to measure it properly.

Then an annual target can be set which is possible within a domestic situation. The amount of new money can be controlled by setting the appropriate reserve asset ratios for banks so they can only create so much new money.

Thre is also the option for the government to issue all the new money for any given year and then lend it out to the banks.

International capital flows would add to this equation but again could be managed within the same framework since that money is flowing in through the banking system.

This is very achievable in NZ as we have only 4 major banks (all Australian owned).

Remember that the right to create new money is a sovereign right which has been taken by the private banking system for their own benefit. This has created the subsidy to end all subsidies, a continual transfer of wealth from the global commons to the private sector.

It represents a complete failure of democracy, government and the state acting on behalf of its citizens.

Many people have been and are trying to change this situation in a variety of ways and getting control of the money supply (the original goal of monetarism) will be a major help in this effort.

blessings

raf

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:07:40 -0000

That's another good question. The answer depends on which central bank you are talking about: the ones which are "owned" by the government and the ones which are private institutions.

It's on this point that one enters the murky world of conspiracy theories so i'll be careful to stick to the facts.

The Reserve Bank of New Zealand is wholly owned by the Government and its finances are included in the Crown accounts. So in effect they are owned by the citizens of the NZ in so far as government is a representation of citizens.

The Federal Reserve Bank is not part of the US government though the board is appointed by the President. The regional Federal Reserve Banks are owned directly by the private banks in those districts.

The Bank of Internationial Settlements in Basle (BIS) is a clearing house for international transactions and a club for central banks .

From this your answer can come. The RBNZ should acknowledge the system they operate in but they don't. A pressure group got them to admit privately that this is the case about 5 years ago but that took years of sweat.

Who is running this show?

This question is about democracy not just about money. It's about power and who controls it.

So maybe the Fed doesn't have to do anything about it but Congress should wake up and sort it out. Of course in the US, corporate interests are too powerful for individual Senators to battle against so it's hard to see it happening.

In New Zealand its a different story and i believe we can make the change.

I hope that answers the question..if not just ask again :-)

warm wishes

raf

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:30:33 -0000

hi raf-

“The power to create new money via interest bearing loans resides with the private banking system. This means they are in control of who can access money.”

well, i don't know how they do it in NZ, but in the u.s. 'new fiat' is created by the fed. which is, in essence, a private bank. see: who owns the fed

its chairman b. bernacke has been unaffectionately named 'helicopter ben' because of these statements:

'He got it after his remark that he’d drop dollars from a helicopter if that was needed to stimulate the economy - meaning, of course, he’d keep the printing press running "full out" if that’s what it took. Central bankers never run out of paper or ink.' see

why do central bankers never run out of paper and ink?

coincident with this idiocy the fed has stopped reporting m3 figures. so no one really knows how much paper is being printed. looking at the charts:
one can see that the printing presses are running overtime.

why is the € and CHF becoming more expensive in us$ terms?

“Complimentary currenices return this power to the local level where the currency is focused on community objectives.”

if one globalizes the word 'community' to mean 'country', then you have a version of 'complimentary currencies' already in place, don't you? for example, the nz 'community' (country) has its 'currency focused on community (country) objectives.' for currencies to be 'complimentary' they must be valued 'to something'. if not then each community can print all the paper they like to purchase goods from another community. a dramatic example of this is the current u.s. financial philosophy.

the problem is that if i sell merino wool to a mfg. (assuming there is one) in the u.s. for x$ a kilo, and i am paid in u.s.$ and helicopter ben is running his money press overtime then the x$ i get today is worth something less than x$ tomorrow. if i take the $us to the bank and convert to $nz i get fewer of them, because the glut of $us lowers their value. china is in this bind at the present moment along with the other asian bloc exporters. they hold billions in $us and the value is decreasing everyday. google 'central bank of china' to see how they are solving this problem.

for currencies to be 'complimentary' they have to be valued 'to something'. what could that 'something' be?

'The interest component is an unnecessary charge and is in effect a huge transfer of wealth from the state to the private sector. If you want to understand why 1% of the population holds 50% of the wealth then this is where you should look.'

money is commodity. people that are employed to deal in this commodity also must be paid for their work (how much is another question.). the cost of money is called interest. interest, as a policy tool, is a way of controlling the amount of money in circulation, in particular when fiat is not linked 'to something'.

you might these links of some interest:

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2007/cr021507.htm

http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/

http://www.worldbank.org/knowledge/chiefecon/stiglitz.htm

http://www.jsmineset.com/

http://kitco.com/

http://www.mises.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises

the best
basho

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:26:57 -0000

“This is a good question. Until now monetarist theory has looked
to control the physical money supply (M3 or similar) but has done
it using monetary policy ie raising or lowering interest rates.

This experiment didn't work and eventually monetarism was
consigned to the dustbin and a general inflation number was used.”

it's still working where i'm at. eu, swiss, japan central banks
are still using it. they have all raised interest rate recently.
the fed in the u.s. causes the markets to crater whenever
they 'threaten' to raise rates.
nz raised it's rates to 7.5% (http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/index.html)

if by 'general inflation number' you mean something like
the cpi in the u.s. it is probably the most manipulated
number in 'the dark science'.
see: http://www.shadowstats.com/cgi-bin/sgs/article/id=343

“The original idea was correct but the tool to use it wasn't.
Interest rates are a very blunt tool and merely change
the price of borrowing rather than limit change supply or demand.”

doesn't the cost of money effect its supply and demand?

“Of course it does have an impact just not a very precise one.
Also with the expansion of capital markets the short term
interest rate is not as influential as it once was with i
nvestors able to access the yield curve out to 30 years.”

haven't researched whether or not nz has a 30 yr bond.
the u.s. trashed theirs a year or so ago.
that means they are working in the short term 90 days
to 10 years. until yesterday that yield curve has been inverted.
see: reuters

so in effect it's all short term interest. you get paid the same if
you lend for 90 days or ten years. that is, no risk premium for
a longer holding. tell me would you hold a ten yr bond,
a ten yr. risk, for the same premium as a 90 day note. not me.:)

“I just completed some research here in NZ: since 1988 the
increase in the money supply has been 326%; the increase
in house prices has been 393% and the CPI has increased only 54%.
Something is clearly out of whack here.”

amen, brother :)

“CPI is not measuring the impact of house prices in
the economy and the banks are expanding
the money supply on demand.”

why not?
what are the components of the cpi in question?

“To answer the question of how to control
the money supply. Like anything you want to control,
first you have to measure it properly.”

'measure it properly' is in the hands of the
folks that print the money, alas. :)

“Then an annual target can be set which is possible within a domestic situation.”

who does this in your scenario ?
who does this now?

“The amount of new money can be controlled by
setting the appropriate reserve asset ratios for banks
so they can only create so much new money.”

you mean create new loans?
what happens when you take money out of circulation ala increased reserve ratios?
where does this money go?
what does a bank do if it needs more money for loans?

“Thre is also the option for the government to issue all the
new money for any given year and then lend it out to the banks.”

who issues the fiat now?

“International capital flows would add to this equation
but again could be managed within the same framework
since that money is flowing in through the banking system.”

and that's the problem that china is dealing with right now. in order to keep a lid on m3
(read:inflation).

“Remember that the right to create new money is a sovereign right
which has been taken by the private banking system for their own benefit.
This has created the subsidy to end all subsidies, a continual transfer
of wealth from the global commons to the private sector.”

you have vested your sovereign right to the govt. in power.
maybe that's the place to start. :)

“It represents a complete failure of democracy, government
and the state acting on behalf of its citizens.”

what do you recommend?

the best
basho

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:46:49 -0000

hi raf-
"In New Zealand its a different story and i believe we can make the change."

i wish you all the luck that fiat can buy. ;)

the best
basho

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Fri, 23 Mar 2007 00:38:10 -0000

About the question of ownership of central banks, I read somewhere vast majority of countries in the world adopted the bank of england and Fed model, which is they claim to protect monetary system out of politics and government intervention (that is we the people).

I read somewhere only a handful may be 3-5 countries has publicly owned central bank. The Indian currency Rupee shows note is guaranteed by Govt. of India. So it is under public control. Yet I visited Indian RB site, and it says they are the Banker to the Government and Bankers Banker. Banker to the Goverment means government is not entirely controlling the issue of money. Because under FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING System where centralized commercial banks issue credit/debt, private banks create more money (out of thin air) than they have (reserve). The effective loan/reserve ratio varies from 4-10%. So for original $100000 in deposit (depending on how often that money circulates and the loan interest rate) they can create from $90,000 to several hundred thousand dollars in new credit money in a few years or months. This is the reason bor inflation, boom, bust economic cycles. Compound interest (usury on long-term housing loans or high interest credit cards) creates great need for excess money to repay the loans, so house prices go up very quickly in growing areas.

Search Fractional reserve banking (wikipedia do not show the long term effect of FR banking). It is also the source of war, and finacial imperialism of a few country dominating international trade by virtue of unfair currency advantage. US do not have to balance trade as world needs dollar to do import of oil and industrial goods.

Thanks for all the posts. Please make key phrases bold for easier scanning.

Conscious Capitalsim

Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:58:09 -0000

Hi Susmita,

I have been following the thread in Brian's Blog on Conscious Capitalism and oscillate between optimism that Brian is on to something big and pessimism that this is just the same corporate structure working inside a flawed system. I have read some of the links you have provided and I am honestly amazed and astonished at the idea of fractional reserve banking. I don't think anyone really has a clue as to what is going on. The collusion between IMF, the WTO, and the ruling elite primarily being US driven is also quite scary to me. As an average citizen apart from talking about these issues with others what can we possible do?

Is there an alternative to capitalism that provides abundance and prosperity but does not impoverish and enslave others? Does the universe provide unlimited abundance or are we operating in a finite system?

I live in Toronto and have started a blog I will post some of these ideas there. It would be good if we could link to each others sites to increase our SEO. I look forward to learning more about your ideas and frame of reference.

Frank

Re: Now Reality, Extreme Imbalance, Mass Poverty Waste Pollution

Sat, 07 Apr 2007 21:30:40 -0000

Hi David, welcome back. I do not know how it is here in US for homeless. I was very saddened to see people living on cold streets right around Washington DC Capital Plaza...may be there is shelter...but so many in our society feel lost, hopeless and uncared for.

The 2001 distribution of US household wealth and income shows the inequality and imbalance with top 5% of households owning 59% of total wealth and 22% of total income, while the bottom 40% households owning only 0.3% of total wealth and 12% of total income.
See graph here

Re: Now Reality, Extreme Imbalance, Mass Poverty Waste Pollution

Sun, 08 Apr 2007 05:18:58 -0000

Hi Susmita,

The man that is now my colleague has had two periods of homelessness in the USA. The first came almost immediately after he'd delivered his whitepaper on transforming capitalism to the Clinton re-election commitee. Then after 2 years he was literally snatched of the streets and given the opportunity to deliver which came in the form of a 5 year pilot in Russia.

He'd made his point following the failures of top down development programs in Russia, illustrating that this form of capitalism at best only reached 75% of population. Instead he proposed targetted development aimed at uplifting individuals on a community by community basis.

With the Russia project under way he moved on to Crimea and the repatriated Tatar community where corruption was to halt all progress. When I next caught up with him in 2003 he was back in North Carolina living in a tent and blogging from his local library for the US to sign up to the international convention on social economic and cultural rights.

This was the start of us working together , returning him to Ukraine where we exposed the most disturbing conditions in institutional childcare. Just the same as we've already seen in Romania.

It should be noted that 90% of those institionalised are there purely due to the povery of their families, in what is arguably the most fertile agricultural land in the world.

Our work over the past 4 years has been to build a strategy plan based on our form of "conscious capitalism" which will fund massive reform driven by revenues from community business.

Re: Conscious Capitalsim

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 04:46:35 -0000

Hi Frank

I share some of your concern about whether we are really preapared to go fully conscious about the shadow side of capitalism and the shocking truth about private bankers creating money as debt out of thin air and charging compound interest on it with interest growing exponentially. The lack of knowledge and awareness about the nature of modern fiat money world wide is simply shocking. But the awareness is growing steadily everyday and the level of shock and fear is also going down albeit slowly.

Still I am very optimistic about the creative inspired and open hearted people here at Zaadz that are committed to create a differerent world. I personally believe when enough people ( i get the number 144,000) become aware about this and our love outweighs our fear of a very tiny group of elite bankers (few thousand compared to billions). In the very least people need to know that the ultimate power to create currency in any dire situation like global market crash rests with the people and there are many historical instances of that. I will post some later.

Just browsed your nice blog posts, will connect somewhere in my site or blog. Just opened an account at Technorati, but couldn't fully connect/claim my Zaadz blog there.

Cheers

Re: Conscious Capitalsim

Mon, 09 Apr 2007 15:42:25 -0000

Hi Frank and Susmita,

A couple of things I posted recently would appear to be very relevant to this discussion.

First a video describing the banking system and fractional reserve:

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-9050474362583451279&hl=en-GB

Then the Open Capital post, describing a working model of non-usurous finance based on asset sharing rather than debt. Instigated by Chris Cook designer of the Iranian Oil Bourse:

http://pods.zaadz.com/conscious_capitalism/discussions/view/128542

Regards,

Jeff

Re: Conscious Capitalsim

Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:42:10 -0000

Hi Jeff

Thanks for the links. The video is good, but I am not clear on the Open capital thing; it is rather vague to me at this point and beyong this pod's goal which is creating awareness about

what money is, how it functions through our faulty monetary system and ways to correct it.

Peace

Re: Conscious Capitalsim

Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:44:35 -0000

Hi Susmita,

I thought the Open Capital site would be of particular interest to you because it offers the same critique of our current usurous money system and value of barter exchanges as you do in your paper and decribes a working model in which these concepts are being applied for positive change.

There are many examples of current and proposed applications, for example discussions with http://c4-world.com/ with a view to creating a large donor/investor population to fund economic development.

Regards,

Jeff

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:11:40 -0000

Here's more confirmation on The British Never Quit India, and how it got hold of the USA.

http://www.boloji.com/perspective/193.htm

Also my intention got a boost as I got picked as featured member in two sites Development Gateway

and Intentblog

I firmly beleive this is where we need to focus our energy and help restore true democracy, freedom, peace, sustainability, equal opportunity and justice for all. Thank you all for your participating in this conscious power of intention experiment.

cheers
mita

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:30:21 -0000

thanks for the links!

very interesting article. i followed the breadcrumbs and i found the video online: The Money Masters. i added it on Zaadz for all of us to watch :) check them out. a very long documentary...

http://videos.zaadz.com/tagged/the+money+masters/

~C

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:41:14 -0000

Hi C~, sorry I've been away for some time. I myself never had the solid 3-4 hour time to watch it. Wonder what you and the team thought about it. Please post any coments for other readers here.

Meanwhile check my google news on side bar of my new blog on Deep conscious capitalism

There is an article on www.Salon.com

Why capitalism, like nature, is beyond good and evil

A warning not to differentiate between the good "real" economy and bad "unreal" economy. Heidegger makes a rare appearance.

Andrew Leonard [2007-08-17]

-----------------------
here's my response

only evil is ignorance and capitalism is highly unnatural

[Read the article: Why capitalism, like nature, is beyond good and evil]
[Read more letters about this article: Here]

"There is no evil apart from ignorance." This is what Buddha said. Capitalism is a product of human mind with its attendant tendency to commit errors in perception. Unlike man-made currency, in nature balance and equity in energy distribution is maintained spontaneously from within. In human society and systems so far it had taken huge amount of external control, domination and regulations by institutionalized structures to maintain order and balance. By not using our free will mindfully we can actually grow up to go against our basic nature - the basic goodness all human children are endowed with. Instead as product of civilization we have come to believe in sin, guilt, shame, evil and such through our religious-social conditioning and schooling. We are all put on a treadmill that is not ours (citizens) by design or choosing. Nor do we have the time, patience or attention span needed to look or think deeply in a corporate driven consumer culture that rewards mindless addictive greedy habits over conscious thoughtful behaviors.

Yes there is a real economy tied to real products, infrastructure, services, ideas and real human labor and skills and the unreal speculative economy that is based on fundamental misperception about the nature of money, capital and banking. This unreal bubble is actually undermining everything that is of real and genuine value in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness of humankind and destroying the intricate web of life and ecological balance in the planet. We are indoctrinated to believe in the absolute neutrality and essential goodness of capitalism as the only viable system human mind is capable of conceiving so far. 'Deep conscious capitalism' is a new term I have coined to engage concerned citizens in rethinking and changing the system from within our minds and perception.
-- posted as Mitaky
Permalink Saturday, August 18, 2007 06:39 PM

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:18:57 -0000

I had shared some of my thoughts with Mita, but she wrote and suggested that I share them with the group. Therefore, this is a very quick brush stroke. I have been studying money for a few years now, and I came to the conclusion that we were in trouble, and that is not a recent conclusion. The banksters have been meddling with the system for far too long now. Consequently, I really wasn't keen about a pod which concerned itself with Capitalism until I read Mita's article, that is.

I began to read the article quite some time ago, and what I read I liked. I forgot that it was Mita's article. I only remember that I thought the author actually knew what she was all about. Then, I got swallowed up by the activities that normally occupy a writer's time and imagination.

The other day, I was going through one of my notebooks and found the article again. I began reading it again and liked it primarily because she and I share much of the same philosophy regarding the global economic system....or shall I say, the lack of one. I haven't been to the pod much because the I don't believe that anyone practices true capitalism anymore.

For that matter, I don't think we ever have. English terminology can be very misleading. For example, America is not a democracy. Rather, it is a constitutional republic based on democratic principles. If we were a true democracy, the rat race would not exist in Washington, DC. We refer to our economic system as capitalism when it is, in fact...........manipulation. The Federal Reserve isn't federal any more than Federal Express is. The list goes on endlessly.

The result being that I finally came out of my stupor and realized who the author was.

My purpose is only to tell you how I feel about her thoughts, and frankly......I like them.
What can we do about them? I only have ideas, and this reply is not the place to express them. Whether you agree with me or not, thank you for reading this.

glenn

Creative Capitalism: Transcript and video of Bill Gates at Davos

Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:48:03 -0000

Below is a transcript and video of Bill Gates' speech at Davos wherein he called for Creative Capitalism.

Bill Gates: World Economic Forum 2008

Remarks by Bill Gates, Chairman, Microsoft Corporation
World Economic Forum 2008
â€œA New Approach to Capitalism in the 21st Centuryâ€
Davos, Switzerland
Jan. 24, 2008

see: http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/exec/billg/speeches/2008/01-24WEFDavos.mspx

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql-Mtlx31e8

Re: Creative Capitalism: Transcript and video of Bill Gates at Da

Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:16:15 -0000

Thanks for the link c4~. I see Bill as a good person, evolving to greater understanding of capitalism, in the sense of emphasizing corporate responsibility and creative opportunity to help those who are suffering and dying and left out of the process.

Yet to say 'capitalism' is the only way, or market force is the only way to bring greater good, progress and well-being is to say 'bible' or 'vedas' is the only source of truth. Self interest leads to greater good, but which 'self'' is leading the way - the fragmented ego, alter-ego healthy ego, transpersonal self or buddha nature or non-dual self?

Attended a BPF regional meeting yesterday in Cincinnati with David Loy and other wonderful people. This is one member Richard's site.

http://dharmastudy.org/article/49/saturday-may-19th-canki-sutta

Perhaps I am hoping for the impossible, yet once there is seeing there must be engaging. We need to create mindful partnership models and bridges at all levels, stages, states and structures. And a debt-free, transparent, sustainable trust currency of the people, by the people, for the people that allows that.... higher creative potential in each individual and collective social evolutionary processes emerge in harmony and joy.

Cheers
mita

Zaadz: Transforming the "Capital" in Capitalism ~ Change The System - Explore Key Ideas, Give Comments on Article "Transforming Money" here

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Conscious Capitalsim

Re: Now Reality, Extreme Imbalance, Mass Poverty Waste Pollution

Re: Now Reality, Extreme Imbalance, Mass Poverty Waste Pollution

Re: Conscious Capitalsim

Re: Conscious Capitalsim

Re: Conscious Capitalsim

Re: Conscious Capitalsim

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

only evil is ignorance and capitalism is highly unnatural

[Read the article: Why capitalism, like nature, is beyond good and evil] [Read more letters about this article: Here]

Re: Some reactions to Susmita's paper

Creative Capitalism: Transcript and video of Bill Gates at Davos

Bill Gates: World Economic Forum 2008

Re: Creative Capitalism: Transcript and video of Bill Gates at Da

[Read the article: Why capitalism, like nature, is beyond good and evil]
[Read more letters about this article: Here]